Justin Bannan 9/24/06

[Filmstudy]

OK, a little setup here...I posted on YBR about the wisdom the Ravens have shown in making talent evaluations on players at an early enough point that they could both:
1: Harvest value from their first 5 years
2: Determine if those players would be valuable franchise cornerstones thereafter
See "Franchise Management" if you like.

In one of the great off-topic discussions of all time, the post degenerated into a debate about the value of Justin Bannan. I proposed we could all watch a game that was representative of his season statistically, and each post our subjective comments. Based on the yardage differential with and withut him in, the 9/24 Cleveland game and the 10/9 Denver game were both fairly representative. Someone else said they had the Cleveland game recorded, so I watched that one.

BTW, I'm not putting down the discussion in any way...it's where the really fun arguments originate. I'm posting my analysis here with a plea that we could have a "player of the week" analysis this fall where we each watch the plays for a single player and submit our play-by-play thoughts to a single thread.

Anyway, you're caught up now. Let me know what you think of the POTW idea.

Justin Bannan 9/24/06
I rewatched the Cleveland game, and very oddly, I had not correctly tagged a play where not only was Bannan in the game, but he made a nice tackle (see below). Occasionally, the camera will zoom in tightly on the QB's helmet or come back from a graphic after the ball is snapped. It's usually not difficult to figure out the defensive players, but Justin got lost in a crowd, and his number was never really visible. I watched the rest of the game to make sure there was not another instance, but this was it. Anyway, I've corrected the error and added it to the spreadsheet. The game totals for Bannan were thus 5.8 YPPA on 12 plays.

Here are the 12 plays as I saw them:

Q1 1/10 Clv 14 0:27
Lined up at RDE. He was double teamed in the midst of a 5-man rush which got no pressure. Pass went L and complete to Winslow for 11 yards.

Q2 1/10 Clv 13 15:00
After Winslow's taunting penalty set the Browns back, Bannan lined up at LDE. He was Singled up on the RT (Tucker), but got no pressure (nor did the rest of the 4-man rush). The pass was complete R to Edwards who danced along the sidelines for 12 yards.

Q2 1/10 Clv 25 14:34
Lined up at RDE and was undercut to his knees by LT Shaffer. Bannan's knees fell on the back of Shaffer, and he got up and pursued to the pile, which was a run middle for 3 yards.

Q2 2/7 Clv 28 13:58
Lined up at RDE. The 5-man rush got no real pressure as Bannan was chipped from LG to LT. The pass-off created a nice throwing lane for Frye to complete to Northcutt who raced upfield for 27 yards.

Q2 1/10 Clv 26 3:41
Lined up at LDE. In Bannan's best play of the game, he worked off the block from RG and slipped into the hole to take down Wright for a 1-yard gain. Very nice play.

Q2 2/9 Clv 27 2:59
LDE. 5-man rush failed to get to Frye, and Bannan was easily handled MTM by the RT. The pass was complete for 8 yards to Edwards.

Q2 3/1 Clv 35 2:35
LDT. This was the wierd play where for "production quality" the CBS crew felt a tight zoom on Frye's helmet would provide the perfect establishing shot. I missed Bannan originally, but have corrected as I mentioned above. He made a nice play while being blocked by the FB and the RG (I think, might have been RT), he reached out and tripped up Wright for a 2-yard gain. Enough for the 1st down, unfortunately, but a nice play for Justin.

Q2 1/Goal Bal 1 0:29
Following McAlister's end zone PI, lined up directy over center in a jumbo set that included Ngata, Gregg, and Franklin as well. Bannan submarined and was pinned to the ground by the center as Frye dropped back to pass, then ran the draw straight past the prostrate Bannan for the TD.

Q4 1/10 Clv 20 14:56
LDE. 5-man rush got good pressure on Frye, who threw incomplete short right intended for Edwards. Bannan was handled easily, but absorbed a double-team from RG, RT.

Q4 2/10 Clv 20 14:53
RDT. Bannan was single teamed and pancaked by the LT. However, pressure on the defensive left side was good and Suggs hurried Frye to an incomplete.

Q4 1/10 Bal 34 7:42
RDT. Wright ran off LG. Bannan slipped part way off a block from LT and stuck his hand out, slowing down Wright. Lewis and Gregg made the tackle after a gain of 3.

Q4 2/7 Bal 31 7:01
LDT. Bannan was doubled by RT and RG. Thomas and Scott lined up left of Bannan and benefited from that double, flushing Frye out of the pocket and forcing an incomplete.

Overall:
The good: Bannan showed versatility, lining up all along the defensive front, and always with a hand in the dirt. He played hard, and did not give up on any play. He played the run very well, as the stats would have indicated (5 Browns rushes for 10 yards with him in, 19 for 38 overall). He contributed 2 nice tackles personally, and this was his best game of the year for YPC (he was under 3 several other times, most notably 2.9 YPC on 19 SD rushes). The game lacked the single turnover or tackle for a loss required to be rated a 10, and I'd mark him down for being blocked to the ground twice on those 5 plays, but I'd say he rated a solid 8 vs. the run for this game.

The bad: Bannan was blocked to his knees or the ground on 3 plays among the 12 defensive snaps. He was wholly ineffective in his personal pass rush, with contributions limited to absorbing doubles. He had no decent push, and he made no attempt to get his arms up and deflect a pass. To set the stage a little better, the Ravens decimated the Browns for 7 sacks on just 27 pass plays without Bannan in and went 0 for 7 with him in. On the 7 plays with Bannan in, the Ravens rushed 5 men 5 separate times. The Browns had 58 yards on 7 plays (8.3 YPP) with him in, and 198 yards on 33 plays without him (6.0). I'd rate his performance vs. the pass just a 2.5, giving him credit for the team pressure on doubles he took in the 4th quarter.

Overall: You can't help but like the effort watching him again. I found myself rooting (note to self: don't waste effort rooting for old video) for him to do well the same way I'd root for any hard-working guy to succeed, but the results were what they were. He personally played the run very well, but the Ravens stopped the run very effectively both with him in and with him out, and they suffered with him on the pass rush.

This was a lot of fun, and I'm sure no one is going to change their mind based on my analysis here, particularly from a game with such mixed results. I would suggest this season maybe we could do a "player of the week" breakdown. To me, it's much more fun to do for players with 10-35 plays than the every-down stars.

[Raven Nurse]

I would love to breakdown the rookie class. Grubbs, Yanda,Figurs, Barnes, etc... That would be great! Not to mention useful. Justin Bannan is a short timer here, the new rookie class is full of potential!

[lance1086]

Originally Posted by Raven Nurse

I would love to breakdown the rookie class. Grubbs, Yanda,Figurs, Barnes, etc... That would be great! Not to mention useful. Justin Bannan is a short timer here, the new rookie class is full of potential!

Justin Bannan is a DT. The "new rookie class" doesn't consist of any DTs; and not to mention, we also lost one to Free Agency. Not sure why you think Justin Bannan is a short timer here, when there's really no one to take his job.

Not that I'm complaining. I really liked what i saw from Bannan last season (as a rotational lineman) & would love to see him stick around a few more years.

[jonboy79]

Originally Posted by lance1086

Not that I'm complaining. I really liked what i saw from Bannan last season (as a rotational lineman) & would love to see him stick around a few more years.

That's precisely why this post came about. Dozens of us held this opinion, which is clearly debated by the stats with him on the field. His presence statistically hirt the team last year. I'd welcome the opportunity to review a couple of these games, but I no longer have any on my DVR... I may have been simply rooting for the effort. In the long run thogh, that may turn him into our next Kelly Gregg.

[lance1086]

Originally Posted by jonboy79

That's precisely why this post came about. Dozens of us held this opinion, which is clearly debated by the stats with him on the field. His presence statistically hirt the team last year. I'd welcome the opportunity to review a couple of these games, but I no longer have any on my DVR... I may have been simply rooting for the effort. In the long run thogh, that may turn him into our next Kelly Gregg.

I watched the Tampa game last night. And still thought he looked fine. He was solid against the run, in taking on his man. And got a decent push on passes. Also, he had an effect on the 3rd INT, by getting a very good push right into Simms causing the bad pass. He isn't in our top 2 DTs, but I still believe that he was a good rotational lineman & will certainly not be cut.

I was gonna upload all the plays in which Bannan was in (against Tampa), but i got lazy. Maybe I'll do it later today.

[jonboy79]

Originally Posted by lance1086

I
I was gonna upload all the plays in which Bannan was in (against Tampa), but i got lazy. Maybe I'll do it later today.

If you do, I'll throw a set of eyes on it in the next couple of days.

[B-more Ravor]

The team was supposedly very happy with his play, so who am I to argue?

[Filmstudy]

Uploading the Tampa game is a great. I'll post the times of the plays he was in, but I have 2 things to say about it:

1. Statistically, Bannan had 2.9 YPPA while the team had 2.8, so he played at the same level as the team, something that was not representative of the season as a whole (Bannan 5.5, Team 4.5). That being said, we're doing this to see how people break down the action, not to prove a specific point about Bannan.

2. I personally want PBP analysis, not simply a general impression of what you saw (although that's cool if supported by good PBP analysis). He was only in for 16 defensive plays vs. Tampa, so that's not a huge assignment. It takes me about 45 minutes to both analyze the plays and take notes, then another 20 minutes to type it up.

[ExiledRaven]

Nice work Film....I really enjoy this stuff.

It might be interesting instead to compare Bannan's numbers to who 1) who he replaced and 2) who replaced him.

That will be an interesting indicator in terms of depth or some minor-supposed indicator of overall impact on the defense the change of a player might have.

Definitely interested in seeing a lot more...I really wish I had the time to do what you're doing. Really great stuff.

Thanks again for running through these stats

[Raven Nurse]

Originally Posted by lance1086

Justin Bannan is a DT. The "new rookie class" doesn't consist of any DTs; and not to mention, we also lost one to Free Agency. Not sure why you think Justin Bannan is a short timer here, when there's really no one to take his job.

Not that I'm complaining. I really liked what i saw from Bannan last season (as a rotational lineman) & would love to see him stick around a few more years.

Dude, no joke, really, a DT, really..... Was this debated somewhere. Gregg, NGATA have it wrapped up. As it has been reported, despite what one game you watched he is very replaceable and will only be here for a short while unless he gets better *which we all hope). My comments were to Filmstudy, to do this type of analysis on our rookie class, which will be very useful and interesting. Not sure where you are coming from. Read F.S's report, he really is pretty accurate.

[Filmstudy]

Bannan's plays vs. Tampa:

Q2 1/10 TB 32 14:36

Q2 2/8 TB 34 14:01

Q2 1/10 TB 37 8:52

Q2 2/2 TB 45 8:18

Q2 1/10 TB 50 7:39

Q2 2/6 Bal 46 6:55

Q3 1/10 Bal 12 7:20

Q3 2/11 Bal 13 6:43

Q3 3/4 Bal 6 5:50

Q3 4/4 Bal 6 5:45

Q3 1/10 TB 31 1:14

Q3 1/5 TB 25 0:39

Q3 2/2 TB 28 0:36

Q4 1/10 TB 31 15:00

Q4 1/10 TB 41 14:19

Q4 2/6 TB 45 13:38

I'll post notes after I review.

[Art-Florida]

These stats are pretty dry, but the conclusions are pure gold. Keep up the sterling work.

[Filmstudy]

Hey ExiledRaven, explain to me a little better what it is you'd like checked. You were asking who he replaced and who replaced him? That's sort of the whole comparison. Bannan has the aggregate stats for his defensive plays, and I have the stats for each other heavy, both for each game and the season.

Anyway, let me know what you're looking for and I may well have it.

[lance1086]

Originally Posted by Raven Nurse

As it has been reported, despite what one game you watched he is very replaceable and will only be here for a short while unless he gets better *which we all hope). My comments were to Filmstudy, to do this type of analysis on our rookie class, which will be very useful and interesting. Not sure where you are coming from.

Read your sentence, buddy.

"Justin Bannan is a short timer here, the new rookie class is full of potential!"

Anyone with any sort of intellect, would think that says: Justin isn't going to be around long, because our new rookie class has a ton of potential & will push him out of a job. So, yes, you didn't make your point very clear at all.

Furthermore, I taped every Raven's game (that we won). And I have re-watched them (unfortunately, I don't have the hours in my day, to break down & take notes on every single play). Either way, I still believe that Bannan is easily the 3rd best DT on our team & there is ZERO chance that he gets cut this year. He still has 3 years left on his contract, and he'll probably be around for atleast 2 of those.

[bassgtrst]

Bannan is going to be around atleast until his contract expires. However I doubt he gets an extension when his contract expires.

I think it would be hard for Filmstudy to compile YPP type stats for the OL since the most of the OL players are on the field for the entire game, barring injury.

Keep up the good work Filmstudy! Always a good read!

[ExiledRaven]

Originally Posted by Filmstudy

Hey ExiledRaven, explain to me a little better what it is you'd like checked. You were asking who he replaced and who replaced him? That's sort of the whole comparison. Bannan has the aggregate stats for his defensive plays, and I have the stats for each other heavy, both for each game and the season.

Anyway, let me know what you're looking for and I may well have it.

I guess I mean side for side. ie, your stats for say Ngata, Pryce, Edwards, Gregg side by side just to compare.

Maybe even compare down situations: for example compare who played RDE on 1st down, 2nd and long, 2nd and med/short, 3rd and long, 3rd and short.

Who knows, but whatever you do is great, it's a good read.

[Filmstudy]

ExiledRaven I don't keep position (LDE, RDE, etc.) where the heavy lined up on my spreadsheet, merely that they were onthe field. With the pre-snap movement the Ravens have, it would be very difficult.

I have done some combination analysis, particularly with Gregg and Ngata. I found it very illuminating, but if you think Kelly Gregg got screwed out of the Pro Bowl, you would not.

Lance, I'd certainly agree that Bannan is our 3rd best DT now, particularly with Franklin gone and Edwards looking like he'll be moving back from primarily DE to primarily DT this season. I simply hope he can contribute at a level substantially higher than last year. Since you have the recordings, can you do just 1 of those games? Pick one where Bannan just had 10 or so plays if need be (like the 12 at Cleveland). I want to see if folks are either seeing or looking for something different on a play-by-play basis.

Ravennurse, we'll break down some of those rookies as the season progresses.

[lance1086]

Originally Posted by Filmstudy

Lance, I'd certainly agree that Bannan is our 3rd best DT now, particularly with Franklin gone and Edwards looking like he'll be moving back from primarily DE to primarily DT this season. I simply hope he can contribute at a level substantially higher than last year. Since you have the recordings, can you do just 1 of those games? Pick one where Bannan just had 10 or so plays if need be (like the 12 at Cleveland). I want to see if folks are either seeing or looking for something different on a play-by-play basis.

I'll try. It's just tough to find time in the day (it would prolly take 60-90 minutes, i imagine; b/w finding all the plays he was in, analyzing them, & taking the notes). But again, I'll try. It'll prolly be SD, Atl, or Pitt. I don't have a ton going on tomorrow, and can try to do it.

[Filmstudy]

The exact times of the plays from the Cleveland game is in my post, but if you want to do 1 of the 3 games you mentioned, he had 32 plays vs. SD, 17 vs. Atlanta, and 2 only before the injury vs. Pitt at home ended his season.

[lance1086]

Originally Posted by Filmstudy

The exact times of the plays from the Cleveland game is in my post, but if you want to do 1 of the 3 games you mentioned, he had 32 plays vs. SD, 17 vs. Atlanta, and 2 only before the injury vs. Pitt at home ended his season.

I'll prolly do the Cleveland game instead, since you have the times listed. I'd actually thought you wanted me to do a different game, but i'll do cleveland if i've got the time tomorrow.