Can't Be Critical of Flacco?

[RockGod]

For awhile now I've been listening to and reading things about Flacco and how he preformed in his second year. It seems like to some people you can't be critical of the guy and if you are your saying he's a bust or something.

This is one example of it;

http://www.baltimoreravens.com/News/Articles/2010/01/Cam_Convinced_Joe_Will_be_Elite.aspx

Anyone that watched any Ravens games this season with an objective eye saw Flacco struggle. To me he didn't really make much progress from year one to year two. That doesn't mean I think he's a bum or a bust, it just means I think his progress was minimal at best. Now they want to say that it was injury related, while during the season everyone from Flacco to Harbaugh said the injury didn't affect his play. When you’re seeing Flacco perform at the same time he and his coaches are saying the injury isn't affecting him then what other conclusion can you come to, other then he hasn't progressed?

I, like Cam believe Flacco is going to be a really good QB, I'll hold off on calling him an elite QB for now. He has a lot of progress to make other then throwing the ball any where on the field from any where on the field for him to be an elite qb. I need to see his pocket awareness get better, I need to see him find an open receiver while two DE are pulling him to the ground, I need to see him take control of a game winning drive by getting his team in and out of the huddle before the play clock runs down to 8 seconds, I need to see him hit receivers in stride on a consistent bases. There are so many areas of leadership missing from his game and I'm not talking about all that rah rah crap. I guy called into the radio station and made an excellent point. Peyton Manning has been in the league for 12 years and when he's not on the field he's look at pictures and talking to his OC. Flacco is in his second year and when he's not on the field he looks like he's waiting for a bus. You would think this would be reversed but it's not.

I hope Cam reads this thread; I can call things as I see them good or bad without coming to a conclusion about the guy’s entire career.

[baltimore_hokie]

Flaccos's rookie year compares favorably to Manning's. His second year does as well.

His rating increased 8 points from last year.

He threw 7 more TD's and the same amount of INT's, throwing 70 more passes.

He threw for 600 more yards than last year.

He has the 5th most yards all time for a QB in his first two seasons.

He has won 3 playoff games in his first two seasons.

He has not missed a game in his first two seasons.


With the weapons he has around him and dominant run game, it's hard to argue that the guy has been awesome for us. In only his second year, he put up some of the best numbers any Ravens QB has EVER put up.

We are really in no position to complain about what he has done. You can't expect a better first two years from a QB than what this guy has given us.

You also have no idea what is going on when Joe is on the sideline, who he talks to right when he comes off the field, what is happening when the camera is not on him. Maybe he knows what they did right and what they did wrong, so he doesn't need to talk to any of the coaches?

It's really unrealistic for us to expect him to throw for 300 yards a game, especially when he only has Mason and Clayton to throw to. If they gained more separation and got open, Joe would be able to get the ball out to them. Would you rather him throw balls up for grabs than keep it and take the sack?

Look downfield, the receivers are shadowed all day, every week. They are terrible, even Clayton knows it (hence him saying the Ravens need a "weapon in the passing game" this off-season).

I critique Flacco just as much as the next guy on here, so it's not like I will bitch at anybody that says something bad about him. The bottom line is that you need to look at the big picture and realize that what he just did in only his second year as a QB is remarkable. For the 18th pick, from a D-II school, with no weapons, without getting reps in training camp, with several nagging injuries, this guy is all we could have asked for.

Be patient. Once Ozzie finds him some capable WR's, Joe's stats will only get better. But for goodness sake, don't critique that he doesn't talk to coaches on the sidelines or say anything like that. It's just idiotic.

[grayplay]

Just an fyi, you can't believe a coach when he says his starting QB has an injury that isn't affecting him. You can't even believe the player. No team in their right mind puts that kind of information out there unless they absolutely can't hide the injury or it's seriousness. Cam just said that if the public had seen how much time and effort joe put into rehabbing each week to get ready we would be very impressed. There was an obvious injury, it did affect his throws, anyone with working eyes noticed it. You don't give the other team more reasons to gameplay around the run, and only the run.

[Dont Know]

Anyone that watched any Ravens games this season with an objective eye saw Flacco struggle. To me he didn't really make much progress from year one to year two.

I disagree. I think he was playing well up until the Minnesota game where I believe he was injured after taking a beating. After that he struggled the whole way.


Now they want to say that it was injury related, while during the season everyone from Flacco to Harbaugh said the injury didn't affect his play. When you’re seeing Flacco perform at the same time he and his coaches are saying the injury isn't affecting him then what other conclusion can you come to, other then he hasn't progressed?

The most probable conclusion is that the Ravens under Harbaugh, as they have done before, were lying about the injury status of one of their QBs for as long as they could.

Remember Kyle Boller and the pre season of 2008? What happened? Think back now. And what did Harbaugh say when Troy Smith was going to start the 2nd game with Joe Flacco backing him up and Kyle Boller nowhere to be seen?

[Flipping Birdie]

I think that argument that Flacco was not injured because he and the coach said so is ridiculous. Like Harb is going to come out and say "Flacco's injuries will severely limit him in the passing game, so if I was the DC for the opposing team I'd concentrate on stopping our running game, because seriously, we're not getting anywhere by air."

It's sort of like how we all know as an irrefutable fact that Carson Palmer's injured thumb wasn't negatively effecting his game. Why? Because he and Marvin Lewis said so, that's why.

[Rayvens52]

I think that argument that Flacco was not injured because he and the coach said so is ridiculous. Like Harb is going to come out and say "Flacco's injuries will severely limit him in the passing game, so if I was the DC for the opposing team I'd concentrate on stopping our running game, because seriously, we're not getting anywhere by air."

It's sort of like how we all know as an irrefutable fact that Carson Palmer's injured thumb wasn't negatively effecting his game. Why? Because he and Marvin Lewis said so, that's why.

It has been well documented by reporters that his leg injury is one of the worst they have ever seen. He had to rehab it continually and have blood drained from his leg multiple times a week. So yes his injury was bad.

I agree that his overall progress was not overwhelming, but I am going to reserve my judgement on him being an elite QB until we surround him with some viable weapons!

[RavenScallywag]

The problem is, there's about three types of people, when it comes to opinion about Joe Flacco...

1. People who believe Joe Flacco is a golden boy, can do now wrong, etc.
2. People who believe Joe Flacco is a decent QB, still needs to get better
3. Idiots who believe we need to cut, trade, or set free in the forest Joe Flacco because he OBVIOUSLY can't be an elite QB in his career, looking the way he has the past two years.

I'm somewhere between 1 and 2, I'll admit. I believe Joe did struggle this year, but I think he did progress a little. He wasn't as careless with the football this year as he was last year. Consider, Joe had a HUGE improvement in fumbling the ball, and he really did have less "OMG, what are you thinking?" type throws...the problem was that he had those throws in critical situations, so it made it all the more :grbac:

But to say he's elite? Yeah, that is a stretch. He's still the 3rd best QB in the AFC North, nevermind looking beyond our own division.

The problem comes in when people of type #3 are around, which seems to me to be far more often than most think. It's these people who are sitting here, asking why would we want to trade Troy Smith when Joe Flacco was struggling, and asking why we DON'T give Troy an opportunity to start. Again, I'll admit, that when I see a thread saying something about criticizing Joe, I'm already expecting the argument to be coming from a person of type 3. So right away, I'm trying to argue against the crticism.

I think it's fair to say Joe struggled. I think he did improve a bit, but I also think he raised the bar pretty high with his performance towards the end of last season. When a QB is able to lead his team to the AFC Championship game as a rookie, the expectation is he'll play the same or better. I think because of the injury, and because our receivers just crapped out towards the end, Joe's game got weak and rusty. I really hope we shake things up at WR a bit...If Mason returns, he needs a LEGITIMATE complement at WR...Mark Clayton is not going to do it...I know we'll likely keep him based on monetary/contract considerations, but PLEASE make him your #3 receiver! Kelley Washington would be a nice guy to have back, but not as a starter. He should be competing with Clayton for that #3 spot. And we NEED a WR in the draft we can groom. I can understand passing on some guys last year, but this year, you can NOT leave this draft with nothing to develop at WR, because if we're lucky enough to have Mason back, i can't see him playing any more than one year.

[RavensInBrazil]

http://9.media.tumblr.com/J13B6ARo4olzn7ycLzSc7q6ho1_250.gif

Joe Flacco is the third best QB in the AFC North?

Carson Palmer stats: 282/466 (60.5%) for 3,094 yds, 21 TD, 13 INT, 83.6 rating
Joe Flacco stats: 315/499 (63.1%) for 3,613 yds, 21 TD, 12 INT, 88.9 rating

[Carey]

I don't think Flacco struggled anymore then any of the good qb's. Everyone makes bad throws here and there, I think at times he forced some balls but when u have the Wr's he has thats to be expected. Imo if you take numbers, wr's, etc. out of the equation and jus go skill set, he's a top 10 qb. Next year alot of folks willl see that

[psuasskicker]

It seems like to some people you can't be critical of the guy and if you are your saying he's a bust or something. ... Anyone that watched any Ravens games this season with an objective eye saw Flacco struggle.

I don't disagree with this. Certainly you can find things to criticize about Flacco.


To me he didn't really make much progress from year one to year two.

But here's the problem. You take it too far. It is literally impossible to argue that Flacco did NOT make significant progress from Y1 to Y2. Every single major statistical indicator went up significantly.
Comp % up over 3 points.
TD % up a point.
INT % down half a point.
TD:INT ratio up 50%.
YPA up
AYPA up
Rating almost 9 points higher
Sack percentage down
This, on a bum ankle at the end of the year, which who knows how much that was impacting his play. And do not play the "If you just watch him" card. It's a card overplayed by fans who think that they can evaluate the intricacies of the game better than coaches. It's sort of like claiming you watch game film, when in reality you're just watching the game rebroadcast.

Flacco has his faults, there's no doubt about that. He's also a second year QB from D2. I'm sorta tired of parroting how favorably his first two seasons compare to some of the best QBs in the game. It's not hard to find things to criticize about him, but many of those criticisms - such as "he hasn't improved this year vs. last year" - are completely without merit.

- C -

[Jeremiah W]

I don't think Flacco struggled anymore then any of the good qb's. Everyone makes bad throws here and there, I think at times he forced some balls but when u have the Wr's he has thats to be expected. Imo if you take numbers, wr's, etc. out of the equation and jus go skill set, he's a top 10 qb. Next year alot of folks willl see that

I agree with that.

At the begining of the year when he and the O line were healthy, he was putting up top 5 type stats with the Wrs and TEs we have.

[mojorob]

Just an observation. Go back to the tape of the Minnesota game when Flacco was backpedaling. He rolled his ankle over big time. I was sure it was a high ankle sprain and he would be out of that game and miss at least 2-3 games if not more. I was shocked that he didn't miss any time at all.

[jonboy79]

Joe struggled a bit in his second year, as all second year QB's do. It may not have looked like he made that much progress, but that was because he seemed a bit less proficient at "his job" then the previous year. BUt think back, "his job" progressed A LOT from year one to two.
In year one, despite middling YPC numbers, we led the league in carries.
In year two, despite ridiculous YPC numbers, we had middling number of carries.

A much larger portion of the gameplan, and therefore the team's success was placed on Joe's shoulders. With the increased responsibility, and a few debilitating injuries, he won a playoff game again.

He has room to improve, and I see no reason he won't.

[trailhiker85]

The problem is, there's about three types of people, when it comes to opinion about Joe Flacco...

1. People who believe Joe Flacco is a golden boy, can do now wrong, etc.
2. People who believe Joe Flacco is a decent QB, still needs to get better
3. Idiots who believe we need to cut, trade, or set free in the forest Joe Flacco because he OBVIOUSLY can't be an elite QB in his career, looking the way he has the past two years.




Put me down as subscribing to #2. Joe is a decent QB at the very least. Thre's no question he struggled over the 2nd half of the season. To what extent injuries contributed to this is unknown, but we can't chalk it all up to that. There are other deficiencies he needs to work on, such as pocket awareness.

Over all, Joe has shown a lot of promise and in spite of his struggles I don't think you can say we've just seen a sophmore jinx. His 2nd year wasn't bad enough to be considered a jinx.

Yes, we need more weapons in the receiving corps. But even if we'd had those this past season, and even if Joe were injury-free, that doesn't mean he would've thrown up Manning-like numbers. He would still have made mistakes, still have had his own deficiencies to overcome. And you know what ...that's OK for a 2nd year guy.

I would counsel patience. Two years does not a career make. I think Joe has shown us enough that a) there can be no doubt he should be our starting QB, and b) he's worth allowing a lot more time before anyone should consider writing him off. An interesting yet unknown factor may be the next QB coach.

When Flacco first started as a rookie, there were high hopes but for the most part earthbound expectations. His performance since has caused us all to raise our expectations. When you think about, that's a good thing, and I think a good sign for the future.

[RavenousD]

How did Matt Ryan do in his second yr?

He threw for roughly 500 yards less than 2008
Completion Percentage went down nearly 3 points
QB Rating went down nearly 7 points
AYPA went down nearly 1.5 yards
Threw 6 more TD than in 2008, but also threw 14 INTS

Flacco was in a D-2 school

Ryan was considered more polished and NFL ready, and came from a pro-style offense. He has had good weapons,. All his numbers went down.

So if Flacco didnt improve, then Ryan must be a total bust, right?

[psuasskicker]

Joe struggled a bit in his second year, as all second year QB's do. It may not have looked like he made that much progress, but that was because he seemed a bit less proficient at "his job" then the previous year. BUt think back, "his job" progressed A LOT from year one to two.
In year one, despite middling YPC numbers, we led the league in carries.
In year two, despite ridiculous YPC numbers, we had middling number of carries.

A much larger portion of the gameplan, and therefore the team's success was placed on Joe's shoulders. With the increased responsibility, and a few debilitating injuries, he won a playoff game again.

He has room to improve, and I see no reason he won't.

Excellently said.


I agree that his overall progress was not overwhelming

Let's examine this statement a little more closely. The way we'll do that is by saying, "What sort of numbers would Flacco have if we extrapolate his Y3 performance based on his rate of increase from Y1 to Y2?" In other words, if he improves statistically next year the same amount as he improved this year, what are his numbers?

Take the rate of increase of his major figures... Attempts, completion percentage, TD percentage, INT percentage, and yards per attempt. Here's what 2010 would look like:

386/582, 66.4% comp rate, 4,371 yards, 31 TDs, 12 INTs, 97.8 QB rating

Anyone here that would like to claim that wouldn't be significant improvement?

Anyone here that would like to say they wouldn't be thrilled with those numbers next year?

Realistically we shouldn't expect that sort of improvement. Realistically, we should probably say next year will look more like this year.
360 / 575 for 4,000 yards, 20-25 TDs, 10-15 INTs
That'd be a pretty decent year from Flacco. Some improvement, but not a ton, still very solid performance.

If Flacco improves next year at the rate he did this year, though? Those above projections, for this year, would have made him:
#6 completion percent
#4 TDs thrown
#12 YPA
#8 QB rating
Firmly a top ten QB and pushing top five. Let's not pretend he has not made GREAT strides this past year. We can only hope he continues to improve at such a high rate...

- C -

[afcnchamps]

Stats alone say that Flacco had a better year. He showed he will play through pain, he can lead second half comebacks, and be careful with the football.

[Rayvens52]

Excellently said.



Let's examine this statement a little more closely. The way we'll do that is by saying, "What sort of numbers would Flacco have if we extrapolate his Y3 performance based on his rate of increase from Y1 to Y2?" In other words, if he improves statistically next year the same amount as he improved this year, what are his numbers?

Take the rate of increase of his major figures... Attempts, completion percentage, TD percentage, INT percentage, and yards per attempt. Here's what 2010 would look like:

386/582, 66.4% comp rate, 4,371 yards, 31 TDs, 12 INTs, 97.8 QB rating

Anyone here that would like to claim that wouldn't be significant improvement?

Anyone here that would like to say they wouldn't be thrilled with those numbers next year?

Realistically we shouldn't expect that sort of improvement. Realistically, we should probably say next year will look more like this year.
360 / 575 for 4,000 yards, 20-25 TDs, 10-15 INTs
That'd be a pretty decent year from Flacco. Some improvement, but not a ton, still very solid performance.

If Flacco improves next year at the rate he did this year, though? Those above projections, for this year, would have made him:
#6 completion percent
#4 TDs thrown
#12 YPA
#8 QB rating
Firmly a top ten QB and pushing top five. Let's not pretend he has not made GREAT strides this past year. We can only hope he continues to improve at such a high rate...

- C -

I'm not saying I don't think he is good or ever will be elite, all I'm saying is I want to see Ozzie surround him with talent so we can see what really have. I think he has all the tools to be great but if we do not give him what he needs we will waste another QB!

[RustonRifle]

Anyone that watched any Ravens games this season with an objective eye saw Flacco struggle.

It doesn't sound like you have an objective eye at all.




I hope Cam reads this thread; I can call things as I see them good or bad without coming to a conclusion about the guy’s entire career. :laugh::laugh::laugh:





How did Matt Ryan do in his second yr?

He threw for roughly 500 yards less than 2008
Completion Percentage went down nearly 3 points
QB Rating went down nearly 7 points
AYPA went down nearly 1.5 yards
Threw 6 more TD than in 2008, but also threw 14 INTS

Flacco was in a D-2 school

Ryan was considered more polished and NFL ready, and came from a pro-style offense. He has had good weapons,. All his numbers went down.

So if Flacco didnt improve, then Ryan must be a total bust, right?

Exactly!!!

I don't know if JF will ever be elite but we are lucky he's here and hopefully he gets some legitimate weapons in the passing game.

[RAVENOUS52]

Just based on what I have seen of Joe Flacco live and on television this season, I feel he struggled, beginning with the first Cincy game, against good competition and it had nothing to do with the win-loss outcome of the game.

Part of it was his injuries but a lot of it had to do with the holes in his game that teams are keying on now.

I still have the highest of hopes for his future as our franchise QB for the next decade + and will be closely monitoring his progress in specific areas and commenting on Flacco as I please, be it to praise or criticize him.

Although I must say that I think the percentages are pretty low that he'll be our Heath Schuler, as my friends who are fans of other teams too rancid to mention keep taunting me with.

[Mista T]

Heath Schuler

Shuler? Not likely. Too much talent.

I could see Flacco as another Carson Palmer, teasing us with his potential but never attaining elite status.

[RockGod]

Don't get me wrong, I agree with what everyone is saying. I know there are a million things to factor; his numbers are better etc. etc. My problem is when you talk about what he doesn't do well then people act like your calling him a bust or you don't think he'll amount to anything.

I think Flacco has a huge upside and will be one of the better qb's in the league barring injury, but there are things I saw this season that raise some flags for me.

1. His pocket awareness is bad especially when the rush is coming from the left. He doesn't step up in the pocket to help his Oline and he takes too many sacks.

2. He's not in sync with his receivers except for Ray Rice. Last year it was Mason. He's too quick to check it down and almost never scrambles to allow the receivers more time to get open. That area there I think he took a step back from last season. He was a lot more mobile last year and made things happen with his feet. I remember the TD pass to McClain after Joe ran around for about 5 minutes that was great; we didn't get that this season.

3. His clock management is horrible; Kyle Boller did a better job getting the team in and out of the huddle. (Note; that's the only thing Kyle did better then Joe). Joe has no sense of urgency, I know he's a laid back kind of guy but there are times when he needs to hurry up and get everyone ready.

I don't question too much about Joe, but I do have some and it doesn't mean I think he's a bad qb. Right now he's the best qb the Ravens ever had.

[psuasskicker]

I could see Flacco as another Carson Palmer, teasing us with his potential but never attaining elite status.

Carson Palmer didn't attain elite status in '05 when he was the second highest rated QB with 32 TDs to 12 INTs, a 68% completion rate and 7.7 YPA???

Palmer never maintained that status cause of his injuries. If Flacco winds up getting constantly injured, I would expect the same. But Palmer isn't really a good comparison here.

- C -

[festivus]

This a classic stupid off season thread.

Off season is too @#$!ing long, and with the SB next weekend it hasn't even really begun.

Oh well. Nothing to do but :beer:.

[RockGod]

This a classic stupid off season thread.

Off season is too @#$!ing long, and with the SB next weekend it hasn't even really begun.

Oh well. Nothing to do but :beer:.

Ok so tell us what we're supposed to talk about in the off-season. How great and perfect everything is?

[festivus]

Ok so tell us what we're supposed to talk about in the off-season. How great and perfect everything is?

What makes it stupid is that everyone, including you, basically agrees, but the thread lives on: Flacco has the potential to be a really good quarterback. His numbers this past year were very good but there are reasons to hope for more in the future.

That's it. But because the Ravens season is over, we all sit around repeating each other.

I wasn't saying you were wrong.

[Jeremiah W]

What makes it stupid is that everyone, including you, basically agrees, but the thread lives on: Flacco has the potential to be a really good quarterback. His numbers this past year were very good but there are reasons to hope for more in the future.

That's it. But because the Ravens season is over, we all sit around repeating each other.

I wasn't saying you were wrong.

We could talk about Peppers or Marshall some more.

One player that looks like they will be available and unrestricted is Antrel Rolle from the Cards. He is due like 12 mil and said he will not accept a pay cut and wants to play in Miami. Maybe we can convince him to come here and play the slot and some CB or SS until Reed retires.

The Ravens will only be able to bid top dollar for that type of FA who is cut, although it may not happen until late.