OT: Guthrie the ace...what a joke!

[Mr. Mojo Rizon]

4W-4L (soon to be 4-5), 14 HR's, .274 batting avg against, 5.61 ERA

And this is the ace?

Be thankful that McPhail didn't sign him to a long term deal...maybe he knew something that we hard up fans didn't. I'd rather watch the young guys. Let's trade this guy for a 3rd base prospect if we can.

But let's wait until he has a good outing...

[purplepoe]

4W-4L (soon to be 4-5), 14 HR's, .274 batting avg against, 5.61 ERA

And this is the ace?

Be thankful that McPhail didn't sign him to a long term deal...maybe he knew something that we hard up fans didn't. I'd rather watch the young guys. Let's trade this guy for a 3rd base prospect if we can.

There was never a chance he was getting any sort of long term deal. In fact, his pay went down a bit from last season.

He's not an ace, he's just the #1 on this team. There's a big difference.

His trade value is at an all time low right now. The best we can hope for is him turning it around at some point and get a few decent starts before the trade deadline.

I'd like to see Hill and 4 rookies as the rotation from August on.

PP

[phatboy]

Friggin O'S. How can anyone route for this pathetic franchise. As soon as king a$$hole fired Dave Johnson I was done with them.
Please live on your memories. As long as king dick rules this roost we are done.
Find something else to do in the summer. Golf is a great passtime

[Sephy]

Friggin O'S. How can anyone route for this pathetic franchise. As soon as king a$$hole fired Dave Johnson I was done with them.
Please live on your memories. As long as king dick rules this roost we are done.
Find something else to do in the summer. Golf is a great passtime

lol at people still spouting this clueless crap.

[RavensInBrazil]

Granted that he is far from an ace, but...


Guthrie tried to tough it out after getting hit in the forearm but couldn't get out of the first. Guthrie had put together three quality starts in a row before Friday's debacle.

That includes 10 Ks in his previous start against Detroit. He tends to have miserable outings like last night, but it's not like he's incapable of pitching a decent game (e.g. Mark Hendrickson)

[purplepoe]

Granted that he is far from an ace, but...



That includes 10 Ks in his previous start against Detroit. He tends to have miserable outings like last night, but it's not like he's incapable of pitching a decent game (e.g. Mark Hendrickson)

Which means is a #3/#4 starter on a decent team.

And he's been wildly inconsistent this season starting when he got absolutely shelled in the WBC.

PP

[festivus]

lol at people still spouting this clueless crap.

"LOL"? Hardly. Players, coaches and GMs have come and gone. Some things have stayed the same, for a loooong time. Perhaps the "LOL" should be directed at those who think the O's have turned some corner? We shall see.

[Sephy]

"LOL"? Hardly. Players, coaches and GMs have come and gone. Some things have stayed the same, for a loooong time. Perhaps the "LOL" should be directed at those who think the O's have turned some corner? We shall see.

To say these things and ignore the progress the O's have made, both in front office, talent in the majors AND minors - is definitely lol-worthy. I take issue with people who just rabble rouse and yell Angelos as if absolutely nothing has changed since 1998.

[riprulz8]

I agree with you wholeheartedly, Sephy. It's certainly been frustrating for all of us diehard O's fans for the last 11-12 years, but when I hear people spout the same ignorant BS without acknowledging the IMMENSE progress that has been made under Andy's helm, it makes me chuckle.

You can bemoan the past, and Angelos' inability to keep his hand out of the cookie jar, but the truth of the matter is that he has hired a wonderful GM and has allowed MacPhail to run the club as he sees fit.

Our minor league system is now OVERFLOWING with talented pitchers and some very solid positional prospects. Just look at Berken and Bergesen developing before our eyes (Hernandez has struggled a bit as of late). Brandon Snyder is hitting the crap out of the ball in Bowie and Rowell is developing in the outfield and putting up nice power numbers.

Furthermore, we have Reimold who has earned his shot and has come through and we all know that Wieters will get in the groove soon enough. However, the most exciting aspect is that the true "cavalry" hasn't even arrived yet. We have Tillman dominating in Norfolk, Arrieta (who looks like Mussina) Patton and Erbe destroying the competition in Bowie, and a young Matusz in Frederick who might be the gem of them all.

The future is very promising so just sit back and enjoy this year. There will be some ups and, unfortunately, quite a few growing pains. But it will be all worth it when 2010 comes around. And to the naysayers: Don't you DARE try to jump back on the bandwagon when we compete for the next decade+ and come back into glory. We don't want OR need your sorry asses.

Go O's and go Ravens!

[xmradiodave]

You cheer for your home teams win or lose. 11 losing seasons is difficult to forgive, and the owner has left a lot to be desired. This season though, there are a lot of promising signs. Getting them to all fire at the same time seems to be the difficult task. When our pitching is great, our bats are slumping. When our bats are alive, our pitching stinks it up. Last night with Guthrie on the mound, the team managed to be on the same page with their hitting and pitching. It just happened to be that both stunk.

If you are not an Orioles fan, that is fine, but to say things like "How can people cheer for this team..." is insane. The answer is easy. They are our team, and when they turn the corner and start putting up wins, and they will do it, then the naysayers can stay away for all I care.

The Orioles famr system is as solid as it has been for a very long time, and these guys are slowly making their way up. If you can not see the talent that has come up so far, then there is no need to try to convince the naysayers otherwise. Pay attention. Do not just look at the box score. That does not tell the whole story.

[festivus]

To say these things and ignore the progress the O's have made, both in front office, talent in the majors AND minors - is definitely lol-worthy. I take issue with people who just rabble rouse and yell Angelos as if absolutely nothing has changed since 1998.

Oh, some things have changed. Some things have stayed the same. I wouldn't mock the Kool Aid drinkers any more than I mock the Ravens Kool Aid drinkers, but I certainly wouldn't mock the skeptics. There is a place for skepticism in the O's fan base.

[riprulz8]

Skepticism is one thing, but when it reaches the point of bitching and complaining and totally blinding oneself to progress, THEN I have an issue!

[wickedsolo]

Skepticism is one thing, but when it reaches the point of bitching and complaining and totally blinding oneself to progress, THEN I have an issue!

I've been a fan of the O's my whole life, but the past couple of years I just have felt like we have had either decent pitching and terrible offense or really good offense and then terrible pitching. It hasnt seemed to hit a "balance" in a long time. You can't really win without both parts working well. Or at least one working extremely well.

In my opinion, pitching is the most important part of winning organizations. The Phillies, Red Sox, White Sox, and even the Yankees all have (and have maintained) very deep and consistent bull pens. I feel like we havent. We bring in Kris Benson to be a top of the rotation guy, he has a mediocre season, we let him go. We traded Erik Bedard, though that seemingly was a good trade I guess, but he looked like he could be a legit ace for us. After that we just have had a tough time filling out a consistent bull pen. At least from what I can tell.

It's also frustrating to see guys like Mark Texiara, who apparently wanted to play in Baltimore being that he is a local guy, not get pursued more than what he was. I heard that we offered him the same contract that the Yanks did, but I dont really know if that's true or not. I have a hard time believing that. If he wanted to play here and we offered him the same contract the Yanks did, then why choose them over us? AJ Burnett was another guy that apparently was pretty interested in coming to Baltimore.

It's hard to compete in a division where your two big rivals are the two biggest spending ball clubs in America. Peter Angelos hasn't shown that he is really willing to go out there and get the big free agents. While overpaying for guys like CC Sabathia are not the way to go, there are times where you need to push the envelope and go out and get the guys that can help your ball club win now and in the future.

Also, regarding the minor league guys, I think that it's great that we have some nice talent circulating in the minor leagues, but keep in mind that dominating in the minor leagues doesn't mean that they will do well in the Majors.

[riprulz8]

I've been a fan of the O's my whole life, but the past couple of years I just have felt like we have had either decent pitching and terrible offense or really good offense and then terrible pitching. It hasnt seemed to hit a "balance" in a long time. You can't really win without both parts working well. Or at least one working extremely well.

In my opinion, pitching is the most important part of winning organizations. The Phillies, Red Sox, White Sox, and even the Yankees all have (and have maintained) very deep and consistent bull pens. I feel like we havent. We bring in Kris Benson to be a top of the rotation guy, he has a mediocre season, we let him go. We traded Erik Bedard, though that seemingly was a good trade I guess, but he looked like he could be a legit ace for us. After that we just have had a tough time filling out a consistent bull pen. At least from what I can tell.

The problem with Bedard was that he was a malcontent, often "injured" over minor nuisances and expressed ZERO interest to sign a long term deal with the O's. MacPhail got Tillman, Sherrill and Jonesy out of the trade, and, as you alluded to, we came out WAY on top.

It's also frustrating to see guys like Mark Texiara, who apparently wanted to play in Baltimore being that he is a local guy, not get pursued more than what he was. I heard that we offered him the same contract that the Yanks did, but I dont really know if that's true or not. I have a hard time believing that. If he wanted to play here and we offered him the same contract the Yanks did, then why choose them over us? AJ Burnett was another guy that apparently was pretty interested in coming to Baltimore.

Teixeira is full of shit. He and Boras played the Orioles so that the Yankees would pony up and pay him more money while allowing him to play in his "childhood idol's" (Mattingly's) uniform. That Benedict Arnold even said he would go to games at OPACY with a Yankee's hat and Mattingly jersey on. As for the contract amount, I believe our number, without looking it up, was 7 years, 150 million, or almost 21.5 million A YEAR! The Yankee$ offered him an 8 year 180 million dollar deal, or 22.5 million a year. As for Burnett, he was only "interested" because his wife is from the area. Right now, as Andy is trying to right this once proud franchise, we have to realize that free agents will not come here unless we overpay or we start winning. We are on the cusp of being very competitive again, and soon we too will be attractive to free agent stars

It's hard to compete in a division where your two big rivals are the two biggest spending ball clubs in America. Peter Angelos hasn't shown that he is really willing to go out there and get the big free agents. While overpaying for guys like CC Sabathia are not the way to go, there are times where you need to push the envelope and go out and get the guys that can help your ball club win now and in the future.

So offering 21.5 million dollars a year for 7 years isn't trying to go out and get the guy that can help your ballclub? Nice logic there. Just because a guy doesn't sign with a franchise that has been mired in an 11 year losing streak doesn't mean that PA and AM haven't made a concerted effort. If the FA doesn't want to play here, he doesn't want to play here. End of story.

Also, regarding the minor league guys, I think that it's great that we have some nice talent circulating in the minor leagues, but keep in mind that dominating in the minor leagues doesn't mean that they will do well in the Majors.

No shit dude, but you're working with the law of averages with minor league guys. Out of all the pitchers we have in the minors, as I mentioned above, there will be fizzlers, decent MLers and, hopefully, a couple stars. I never said that all of our MiL stars would light the majors on fire. To do so would show a remedial understanding of the game.

[wickedsolo]

No shit dude, but you're working with the law of averages with minor league guys. Out of all the pitchers we have in the minors, as I mentioned above, there will be fizzlers, decent MLers and, hopefully, a couple stars. I never said that all of our MiL stars would light the majors on fire. To do so would show a remedial understanding of the game.

And I never said that you were saying that.

I was just merely pointing out that minor league studs don't always blossom in the pros. It's easy to look good when you are the best player out there, but when you are playing with guys who are just as good as you and guys who are wayyyyy better than you...it's hard to look as good.




So offering 21.5 million dollars a year for 7 years isn't trying to go out and get the guy that can help your ballclub? Nice logic there. Just because a guy doesn't sign with a franchise that has been mired in an 11 year losing streak doesn't mean that PA and AM haven't made a concerted effort. If the FA doesn't want to play here, he doesn't want to play here. End of story.

1 guy. 1 guy. 1 guy.

I realize that the FA has to want to come here and play too, but it's going to be hard to convince them that we are on the verge of a winning franchise when we dont make much of an effort to try and reel in some guys that can make other players turn their heads towards Baltimore and say "Hmmm...maybe they have something going on there..."

Being on the verge of winning is great. I'm glad to hear that we have talent in the minors and I was also happy to see Markakis and BRob continue to play well and I thought the Adam Jones pick up was good too. You have to be more than just being on the verge of winning to attract players though. It's gotta start with the money. That's why so many players want to go play for New York or Boston. They'll pay and they have a good shot at winning. It has to start somewhere though.

Oh, and you can knock it off with the snide remarks ("nice logic there"). :rolleyes:
I wasn't rude or outlandish in any of my comments. So, if you want to do the whole "I am a way bigger fan than you therefor I know more than you, so you can't hold a conversation with me because I will talk down to you in order to make you feel inadequate" thing, well then you can go fuck yourself as far as I am concerned. :thumbup:

[Rex Thunder]

lol at people still spouting this clueless crap.


Granted that he is far from an ace, but...



That includes 10 Ks in his previous start against Detroit. He tends to have miserable outings like last night, but it's not like he's incapable of pitching a decent game (e.g. Mark Hendrickson)

Thanks for the sanity on a page full of clueless haters.

Noone ever said Guthrie was an ace. As has been said, he is simply our #1 pitcher. Maybe he simply isn't good enough to handle the pressure and expectations of a team looking to him "to be" THE guy to lead the young guys.

That said, he is still a quality starter who has suffered some bad luck this year. I was pissed off yesterday watching that garbage of a game- but you know what- this whole team is in a funk.

Mike Mussina is a hall of fame pitcher- and didn't we knock him out of a game in the 1st inning last year- tagging him for 7+ runs? Don't crucify a guy for one bad outing. He hasn't been as good this year as he was the past two years- but we are asking him to be more than he is- and that is only because of the slow rebuilding pace we are at with our best arms in the minors.

He'll get back on track.

[purplepoe]

Hill fails to get out of the 1st inning.

2nd time in 3 days that has happened.

Brutal.

PP

[phatboy]

Time will tell. I was such and avid O's fan years ago. Never a fair weather fan for the Colts or Ravens. I have seen so many sure things go thru this franchise in the last 11 years I guess I will believe it when I see it. We have had many good GM's in the past only to have Angelos come in ala Al Davis and F it up. Maybe many of you are too young to remember the whole history.

[Losac]

Can we have one O's thread where some high-and-mighty expert doesn't chastise anyone who still supports them and mentions how Angelos ruined the franchise, etc.? Yes, we get it - Angelos will never get any of your money. But people do still care about the team and would like to discuss team issues without comments from the peanut gallery.

The entire team looks bad now. What happened to the offense? This team has sucked balls on the road this year but played halfway decent at the Yard. Got a long homestand coming up so hopefully they can pull some wins out of that.

[riprulz8]

And I never said that you were saying that.

I was just merely pointing out that minor league studs don't always blossom in the pros. It's easy to look good when you are the best player out there, but when you are playing with guys who are just as good as you and guys who are wayyyyy better than you...it's hard to look as good.




1 guy. 1 guy. 1 guy.

I realize that the FA has to want to come here and play too, but it's going to be hard to convince them that we are on the verge of a winning franchise when we dont make much of an effort to try and reel in some guys that can make other players turn their heads towards Baltimore and say "Hmmm...maybe they have something going on there..."

Being on the verge of winning is great. I'm glad to hear that we have talent in the minors and I was also happy to see Markakis and BRob continue to play well and I thought the Adam Jones pick up was good too. You have to be more than just being on the verge of winning to attract players though. It's gotta start with the money. That's why so many players want to go play for New York or Boston. They'll pay and they have a good shot at winning. It has to start somewhere though.

Oh, and you can knock it off with the snide remarks ("nice logic there"). :rolleyes:
I wasn't rude or outlandish in any of my comments. So, if you want to do the whole "I am a way bigger fan than you therefor I know more than you, so you can't hold a conversation with me because I will talk down to you in order to make you feel inadequate" thing, well then you can go fuck yourself as far as I am concerned. :thumbup:

Wow, it looks like I struck a chord. I wasn't trying to be snide, but rather I was seriously saying that your logic wasn't sound.

As for the quoted part of that comment, I will only say that you are so far off base it's humorous. Thanks for showing your true colors by spitting profanity at me as well. Stay classy champ, stay classy! :thumbup:

[HoustonRaven]

To discuss the problems with the O's and not add Angelos into the talk is like bitching about a headache while the brain cancer is eating away at you.

I wonder if Nats fans, Skins fans, etc all sit around and rightfully complain about their lackluster success all the while not bring up their owners into the discussion?

Sometimes the issues with a team are systemic that start all the way at the top. Especially since you can sum up the last 12 season with this one phrase ....

"Yes, things were bad last year but we have <insert hitting prospect here> who will be coming up soon as well as <insert 3 minor league pitchers here>. Good think that <insert current GM here> is on board and will change everything around"

[Losac]

"Yes, things were bad last year but we have <insert hitting prospect here> who will be coming up soon as well as <insert 3 minor league pitchers here>. Good think that <insert current GM here> is on board and will change everything around"

This team had no minor league talent to speak of until about 2-3 years ago. They were still busy trying to sign cheap free agent quick fixes like Omar Daal and David Segui, thinking they were just a couple of players away. And no one was ever excited about the likes of Syd Thrift or Mike Flanagan as GM.

[yeahravens]

To say these things and ignore the progress the O's have made, both in front office, talent in the majors AND minors - is definitely lol-worthy. I take issue with people who just rabble rouse and yell Angelos as if absolutely nothing has changed since 1998.

I hope I remember your position when it comes the time to sign a big name pitcher, and Angelos doesn't pay them. But at this point, we will not be getting close to needing a over the top pitcher because the team sucks.

Meanwhile, keep spending your money on his crappy team and we will continue to laugh at you, and your blind faith. :34853_lolpoint:

[Losac]

OK, so we've got the obligatory "OMG ANGELOS SUCKS DONT PAY HIM ANZY MONEY LOLL LOL LOL!!!1!" posts out of the way now.

[YRKPARAVEN]

All I know is the record for professional franchises for consecutive years with a losing record is 16 years, (thank god about to be broken by the worse than bad Pittsburgh Pirates). With a losing record this year, (almost a guarantee that will happen), we are now at 12. We have to get this turned around soon. Lets hope MacPhail pulls another rabbit out with a good #1 pick tomorrow and some sleepers in the later rounds.

[HoustonRaven]

Speaking of O's pitching, both new and old, Ben McDonald was on with The Junkies this morning and I found the interview to be riveting. Here is a link to the podcast ....

http://www.wjfk.com/pages/1460207.php

One thing in particular that Ben said was that Cal Jr used to call the pitches for him and Mussina and then relay them to the catcher. That's a new one on me.