Interesting and insightful thoughts on Vick's return

[Mr. Mojo Rizon]

At the core of Vick’s conduct was a gambling enterprise, no different than the interests that forced several members of the Rooney family to sell their stake in the team. And even if Vick will never again fight a dog, own a dog, pet a dog, or eat a hot dog, there’s a deeper question of whether Vick is drawn to gambling in a manner that will manifest itself in other ways.

That’s why Goodell needs to know how deep the proverbial rabbit hole went when it comes to the pre-prison Vick. Was he engaged in other forms of gambling? Was he associated with dogfighters or others who made a side living betting on football games?

When it comes to Vick, there’s another reason to explore this issue fully and completely. At times, Vick generated wildly erratic performances during his career, with a great game followed by a bad game (or two), and then another great game. Anf then a bad game.

We’re not saying his on-field performances had been corrupted by gambling interests, but we think that Goodell needs to be certain that there’s a different reason for the following string of passer ratings in Vick’s final eight games with the Falcons: 43.4, 86.8, 47.9, 115.1, 62.8, 121.0, 22.7, 97.6.

MORE HERE (http://www.profootballtalk.com/2009/06/02/leagues-aversion-to-sports-betting-could-complicate-vicks-return/)

[hurting]

Uh oh. I think Goodell needs to look into Ben Rothlesburger as well. Here are his ratings over the season.

147, 110.2, 50.6, 80.4, 100.6, bye, 108.6, 38.5, 15.1, 59, 96.4, 94.2, 75.2, 80.9, 81.9, 86.4, 58.6


maybe he had some money on the line in weeks 3, 8, and 9.

Stats can be manipulated any way you want to use them. As a famous statistician once replied to the question "what is 2 + 2?" Reply: "What do you want it to be!"

[Mr. Mojo Rizon]

Stats can be manipulated any way you want to use them. As a famous statistician once replied to the question "what is 2 + 2?"

Reply: "What do you want it to be!"

They say the same thing about message board threads if you don't read the entire thing along with the link.

:read

[hurting]

I did read the link. I think Mike Florio is off his rocker on this one as well. I like PFT and think he does a good job.

But i did not see any evidence to support the claim. From what I have read Vick was the 'head' of the dog fighting ring. Much like the owner of a casino, he likely would have collected his take on all of the gambling going on and not gambled himself. Much like a casino owner would get his take and likely not gamble. Of cours I do not know this. But my theory(based on the facts provided) holds as much water as florio's.

[ravenmaniac]

The Feds went over his personal life with a fine toothed comb. They will have left nothing unread or uncovered, emails, bank records, everything would have been looked at. He was a small time thug. Dude had $100 Million reasons not to blow NFL games. He didn't NEED the money. This is a ridiculous premise.

[Mr. Mojo Rizon]

But i did not see any evidence to support the claim.

I'm not so sure Florio is making a claim. I think he's asking his readers to think about this a little more. Perhaps the claim at the end of the day will not be a worthy one. That said, the question is.


The Feds went over his personal life with a fine toothed comb. They will have left nothing unread or uncovered, emails, bank records, everything would have been looked at. He was a small time thug. Dude had $100 Million reasons not to blow NFL games. He didn't NEED the money. This is a ridiculous premise.

While I would agree as would most rational people, why then did he even orchestrate this dog fighting ring of which gambling is a major component? He didn't need the money for that either did he? Yet he participated and enabled it anyway.

We're not talking rational behavior here Maniac...



Try to run, try to hide
Break on through to the other side

[ravenmaniac]

While I would agree as would most rational people, why then did he even orchestrate this dog fighting ring of which gambling is a major component? He didn't need the money for that either did he? Yet he participated and enabled it anyway.

Kicks. The biggest bet was $10K. Thats chump change. Throwing NFL football games is a MUCH bigger endeavor. Vick is stupid but he ain't that dumb.

[Mr. Mojo Rizon]

Vick is stupid but he ain't that dumb.


Maybe, maybe not.

This is the same guy who tried to smuggle weed on a plane in a water bottle and the same guy who as the face of the Atlanta Falcons flipped the bird at TV cameras.:141847_smmackbottom



Goin' to the roadhouse and gonna have a real....good time

[ravenmaniac]

If you've ever been indicted by the United States govt, you'd know that there is nothing that you can hide. No doubt, they investigated Vick's finances, emails, phone records, etc. Florio is just trying to get a rise.

[Mr. Mojo Rizon]

If you've ever been indicted by the United States govt, you'd know that there is nothing that you can hide. No doubt, they investigated Vick's finances, emails, phone records, etc. Florio is just trying to get a rise.

:grbac:

[NC Raven]

I found it neither interesting nor insightful. Anyway, I'm sure Roger Goodell is going to have a lot on his plate tomorrow between that, the Roethlisburger investigation that somebody mentioned above, and now this:

"Joe Flacco had an 80.3 passer rating in his rookie season. In his second game against Pittsburgh in December, however, it was a shocking 22.2. In the crucial AFC Championship game, it was even worse: a staggeringly low 18.2. Now, Joe Flacco was previously enrolled at Pitt University, which shared practice facilities with.... that's right.....the Pittsburgh Steelers. Coincidence? I'm not saying Joe Flacco tanked those last two Pittsburgh games because he owed somebody in his former home town some favors, or because of any influence caused by his numerous connections there, but doggone it, don't ya think maybe there ought to be an investigation here? Doesn't this look like some kind of.... pattern? Again, I'm not saying Joe Flacco lost those games against Pittsburgh on purpose, although he did have a terrible passer rating in them, and he does have some awfully strong allegiances to people in the city."


See how easy it is to be stupid? It's the easiest thing in the world.

[RavensDomination]

I found it neither interesting nor insightful.

I agree, I like PFT but that piece was pretty stupid. I think Vick just sucks as a QB.

[psuasskicker]

Uh oh. I think Goodell needs to look into Ben Rothlesburger as well. Here are his ratings over the season.

147, 110.2, 50.6, 80.4, 100.6, bye, 108.6, 38.5, 15.1, 59, 96.4, 94.2, 75.2, 80.9, 81.9, 86.4, 58.6

Roethlisberger isn't associated with an organization of known high-stakes gamblers.


If you've ever been indicted by the United States govt, you'd know that there is nothing that you can hide. No doubt, they investigated Vick's finances, emails, phone records, etc. Florio is just trying to get a rise.

Putting aside your obviously insane bias against the US government, that isn't even close to the point.

The point is, a lot of his friends were involved in some very heavy gambling. If some of those guys came to him and said "Maybe not play so hard this one...shave some points and fade the line for us," he doesn't need to benefit from it directly...he's earning money for his buddies.

You have waaaaaay too much faith in a guy that ran an illegal operation for years to think it's not possible the guy was involved in point shaving. I'm not saying it happened, but to say it didn't? That's as naive as someone saying they're sure it did...

I also don't think there's anything new here. Goodell's probably wondered about this since the whole thing came out, and I know I've read stuff like this before...

- C -

[Mr. Mojo Rizon]

You have waaaaaay too much faith in a guy that ran an illegal operation for years to think it's not possible the guy was involved in point shaving. I'm not saying it happened, but to say it didn't? That's as naive as someone saying they're sure it did...

:worthy:

[yeahravens]

If you've ever been indicted by the United States govt, you'd know that there is nothing that you can hide. No doubt, they investigated Vick's finances, emails, phone records, etc. Florio is just trying to get a rise.

Yeah, I heard they searched all Swiss bank accounts, laundered money, gifts from and to relatives, they even found out where the water bottle that doubled as bong came from.:insane:

The gambling shouldn't be the issue, that is like saying betting on the Lions to take the Christians in the first was wrong because gambling is immoral. Finding entertainment in torturing and killing innocent animals, ongoing torture, is unforgivable, and those who look the other way have never researched and seen what they did to those defenseless animals.

[psuasskicker]

The gambling shouldn't be the issue, that is like saying betting on the Lions to take the Christians in the first was wrong because gambling is immoral.

No it's not. Not even close.

You don't understand why professional sports players and personel are not allowed to bet on any games?

- C -

[shaslers]

The gambling shouldn't be the issue, that is like saying betting on the Lions to take the Christians in the first was wrong because gambling is immoral. Finding entertainment in torturing and killing innocent animals, ongoing torture, is unforgivable, and those who look the other way have never researched and seen what they did to those defenseless animals.

Hopefully no one will argue with you about the animal abuse. It was terrible and he deserved his punishment.

But don't be so quick to dismiss the gambling. There is gambling (ie, lotteries, horse racing, Vegas lines on football)...and then there is racketeering. Vick financed a racket.

It's been shown time and again that dog fighting has close ties with narcotics operations, illegal weapons, prostitution, murder, illegal gambling, and gang violence. This isn't just one man being cruel to animals. This is about a group of men about whom you reason to suspect a lot of bad shit. It's fair to ask what else this group was involved in, and what are Vick's ties to his old friends?

No one is putting Vick back on trial. Don't look at Vick's wildly sporatic stats as evidence against him in some new round of convictions. But do think of it in the context of a larger story.

Sorry, the question deserves to be asked, even if Florio doesn't know the answer. Vick may deserve a second chance, but that doesn't mean he deserves the benefit of the doubt.

I'll use an analogy, and you can decide if it's valid. Ken Rosenthal, the Fox Sports baseball columnist wrote a thought provoking piece (http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/9616968/Sorry-Papi,-but-we/%27re-living-in-age-of-accusations) on how easily accusations fly on steroid use now that everyone is a blogger these days and old journalistic standards are out the door. He certainly has a point. Perhaps Florio is guilty of the same crime. But Rosenthal also admits the mainstream media -- him -- was asleep at the switch ten years ago, afraid to question what might be going on because of a lack of "proof."

And then you have A-Rod crying foul when a journalist does whatever it takes to find proof to support, in this case, a book.

What's a journalist/blogger to do? I'm not sure. All I know is that when it comes to leeway, I'll side with Florio over Vick.

[RavensDomination]

Ken Rosenthal, the Fox Sports baseball columnist wrote a thought provoking piece (http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/9616968/Sorry-Papi,-but-we/%27re-living-in-age-of-accusations) on how easily accusations fly on steroid use now that everyone is a blogger these days and old journalistic standards are out the door. He certainly has a point. Perhaps Florio is guilty of the same crime. But Rosenthal also admits the mainstream media -- him -- was asleep at the switch ten years ago, afraid to question what might be going on because of a lack of "proof."

What's a journalist/blogger to do? I'm not sure. All I know is that when it comes to leeway, I'll side with Florio over Vick.

I read that Rosenthal piece too, and he definitely brings up a good point. Where does it end? What is there to stop someone from accusing anyone of anything? Especially like Rosenthal says, if you want to sue to try and defend your name, where do you start?

This Florio piece is a perfect example of what Rosenthal is saying. Perfect. Comparing the steroid thing to some random accusation on fixing games is a bit of a reach. There had been rumblings of steroids in MLB for a long time between a lot of people. I haven't heard two words about people fixing NFL games from anyone ever. Is it completely out of the realm of possiblity? Of course not, very few things are. But with zero evidence, and zero bit of chatter in the NFL about this happening, the chances are slim to none. Florio is just trying to stir the pot.

[HoustonRaven]

If you've ever been indicted by the United States govt, you'd know that there is nothing that you can hide. No doubt, they investigated Vick's finances, emails, phone records, etc. Florio is just trying to get a rise.

The winner of this years Indy 500 did pretty ok after his square off with the Feds.

Is that a black helicopter I see over your shoulder?!?!?!?

[ravenmaniac]

The gambling shouldn't be the issue, that is like saying betting on the Lions to take the Christians in the first was wrong because gambling is immoral. Finding entertainment in torturing and killing innocent animals, ongoing torture, is unforgivable, and those who look the other way have never researched and seen what they did to those defenseless animals.

But the point of this thread was that Florio said the NFL needs to look deeper into his gambling because of the possibility that he threw games on purpose. Its not about cruelty to animals.

[ravenmaniac]

The winner of this years Indy 500 did pretty ok after his square off with the Feds.

Is that a black helicopter I see over your shoulder?!?!?!?


And? What does that have to do with whether or not the feds investigated deep enough into Vick to see if he was involved in crimes besides gambling on dog fighting?

[psuasskicker]

And? What does that have to do with whether or not the feds investigated deep enough into Vick to see if he was involved in crimes besides gambling on dog fighting?

How 'bout the fact that you have absolutely no idea how deep they actually investigated?

Or, maybe you'd like to pull your old "when the Feds get into you, they don't miss anything!" line again... In which case, everything Houston says applies...

- C -

[ravenmaniac]

How 'bout the fact that you have absolutely no idea how deep they actually investigated?

Or, maybe you'd like to pull your old "when the Feds get into you, they don't miss anything!" line again... In which case, everything Houston says applies...

- C -

douchebag,

He brought up a case where someone got off on a tax evasion charge. It had no relevance to the conversation. Don't hijack the thread.

[psuasskicker]

From the guy that has a hard on to let everyone know if the Feds are investigating you, you're screwed?

Um..........................

- C -

[HoustonRaven]

He brought up a case where someone got off on a tax evasion charge. It had no relevance to the conversation. Don't hijack the thread.

You're the one that painted this broad brush of "The Feds" now you nuance it down by saying it was "just a tax charge"?

Having a blog simply means the check you wrote for the site has been cashed. The fact you get your info from 3rd hand bloggers is very telling.

PSU makes valid points and your "educated" response is the word douchebag.

Even more telling.

[ravenmaniac]

You never answered the question, the thread is about looking further into Vick's history. What did the the dude beating a tax evasion charge have to do with this thread?

[baltimore_hokie]

the dog fighting thing is a part of the culture in Newport News "Bad Newz", Virginia. there are a ton of areas in the US that have prevalent dog fighting rings that all of these thugs are entrenched in. i have heard a story that Frank Beamer, Virginia Tech's long-time football coach, came to the team in a meeting and explained that dog fighting is not acceptable and should not be done. the idea was that this was directed toward MV1, as it was at the beginning of the season before he made the national championship run for us. appearantly word had spread to beamer that a few guys on the team were involved in dog fighting during their stay here at tech. both of the vicks were pricks when they were down here, rarely going to class and acting like calssless thugs hollering at girls when they walked by. although no one can condone his behavior and actions, you have to respect his talent and i will be eternally grateful for the memories he gave all hokies during the national championship season. the vick family is hated, perhaps more than anywhere else, in blacksburg because of the bad attention they have brought to a great school, but the guy should and will get another chance to showcase his skills. dog fighting happens all the time in shitty areas like virginia beach, and unfortunately vick got a little too deep into it and got caught.