Sporting News Today - Ngata 4th best

[awalt]

They say Ngata is the 4th best DT in the league!

Top 5 (they rated 20)

Albert Haynesworth
Kevin Williams
Vince Wilfork
Haloti Ngata
Chris Canty

extended him Oz!

[NC Raven]

Yes, hurry before they realize he's #1! God, if Hayesworth is worth 100 mil...

[RAVENOUS52]

The crazy part is he still has several years of IMPROVING left to do. Man, what an upside. We'd better lock him up ASAP, before he ends up collapsing O-lines for someone else.:(

[hookml]

I really don't think there is anyone more valuable to our defense right now. Everything we do on D starts with him plugging the hole. Definitely worth top $. Get 'er done Ozzie!

Can you post the link?

[UKRavenStockers]

I'll probably be a rare dissenting voice in this thread but their rankings for Wilfork, Ngata and Canty are all extremely generous in my opinion. Wilfork and Ngata are both tremendous against the run but aren't rounded football players, neither's ability as a pass rusher is good enough for me to consider them top 5 DTs, and as for Canty, he's barely played a down as a 4-3 DT in his career, he was a 3-4 end in Dallas and when he was in for their 4 man lines in passing situations it was at end as often as tackle.

Ngata's run defence isn't far short of being as good as there is, but his pass rushing is distinctly average, there are more than 3 better all-round DTs in the NFL CURRENTLY than Ngata for my money.

[RAVENOUS52]

I'll probably be a rare dissenting voice in this thread but their rankings for Wilfork, Ngata and Canty are all extremely generous in my opinion. Wilfork and Ngata are both tremendous against the run but aren't rounded football players, neither's ability as a pass rusher is good enough for me to consider them top 5 DTs, and as for Canty, he's barely played a down as a 4-3 DT in his career, he was a 3-4 end in Dallas and when he was in for their 4 man lines in passing situations it was at end as often as tackle.

Ngata's run defence isn't far short of being as good as there is, but his pass rushing is distinctly average, there are more than 3 better all-round DTs in the NFL CURRENTLY than Ngata for my money.

But do those dudes drop into coverage or play on offense like Ngata? Talk about well rounded!:eek:

[effo5231]

Ngata's run defence isn't far short of being as good as there is, but his pass rushing is distinctly average, there are more than 3 better all-round DTs in the NFL CURRENTLY than Ngata for my money.

Two things, 1. Ngata isn't supposed to be rushing the QB in our scheme... He's supposed to be eating blockers so Suggs, Gooden, Ray, and JJ can eat QBs. 2... Name the ones you think are better than Ngata.

[Jeremiah W]

Two things, 1. Ngata isn't supposed to be rushing the QB in our scheme... He's supposed to be eating blockers so Suggs, Gooden, Ray, and JJ can eat QBs. 2... Name the ones you think are better than Ngata.

yeah. The guy is as well rounded as an old school wooden keg. He is like a tree trunk that forklifts fat guys 2 yards back almost every snap. Falling on the Qb is not his thing, but a lot of guys are glad he is not the one that got there.

[UKRavenStockers]

But do those dudes drop into coverage or play on offense like Ngata? Talk about well rounded!:eek:

Not going to dispute that, but then most DTs aren't asked to drop into coverage, so it's an unfair comparison. There's no doubt Ngata can but compare the time or 2 a game Ngata drops into coverage compared to the destructive pass rushing ability of some of the other top DTs that Ngata could be chasing and the impact on passing downs is heavily against Ngata.

As for Ngata "eating blockers", he simply doesn't on passing downs, that's why he comes out on a lot of passing downs, because he's not good enough a pass rusher and we have better pass rushing interior linemen on our team. I'm not going to say he doesn't have an impact on this defence but in terms of pass rushing his play and impact is left lacking.

[psuasskicker]

As for Ngata "eating blockers", he simply doesn't on passing downs, that's why he comes out on a lot of passing downs, because he's not good enough a pass rusher and we have better pass rushing interior linemen on our team.

This is only partially true. More accurate is to say that they need to give him a blow somewhere, so why not on those spots? He's still a decent pass rusher, he's just not as dominant at it as he is in other aspects of the game.

More to the point, name the DTs/NTs not on that list that you think are better? I don't know of any...

- C -

[yeahravens]

Not going to dispute that, but then most DTs aren't asked to drop into coverage, so it's an unfair comparison. There's no doubt Ngata can but compare the time or 2 a game Ngata drops into coverage compared to the destructive pass rushing ability of some of the other top DTs that Ngata could be chasing and the impact on passing downs is heavily against Ngata.

As for Ngata "eating blockers", he simply doesn't on passing downs, that's why he comes out on a lot of passing downs, because he's not good enough a pass rusher and we have better pass rushing interior linemen on our team. I'm not going to say he doesn't have an impact on this defence but in terms of pass rushing his play and impact is left lacking.

In a 3-4 scheme, the LB's are the pass rushers, in a 4-3 scheme there are DE's, in zone blitzing a DT is at linebacker and the linebacker blitzes. So if you watched the Ravens at all you would not make this argument because it doesn't apply and you can't support it.

How do INT's fit into your "well rounded" definition?

btw - Aaron Kampman had 62 tackles and 9.5 sacks at DT last year, Ngata had 55 tackles and 0 sacks. Who would you rather have?

***Kampman is 6'4" 265lbs and Ngata is 6'4' 345 lbs.

[Ravenswarrior19]

I'll agree that Wilfork is a head-scatcher to me. I just never seem to notice him being that disruptive (unless he's give a forearm shot to a QB's knee, or a 3 Stooges poke to someone's eye).

In terms of physical abilities, Shawn Rodgers was one of my top 3 DTs last year. His level of play, when he's on, is probably second to none. But I often wonder how well he can sustain that high level of play. I know we wore him out last year with Jason Brown, and making him chase Ray Rice on outside runs.

Kevin Williams is a disruptive freakshow whenever I have a Vikings game on. Reminds me completely of Sam Adams - he's in the backfield in a heartbeat, and he's bigger/stronger than anyone else on the field.

Ngata's got all the tools to be a great interior pass-rusher (strong, agile, quick, play's with great balance), but most of his pressures come more for scheme than flat out ability. I find it perplexing. Maybe if he was just a hair quicker off the ball, he would really ruin the offenses party.

[UKRavenStockers]

In a 3-4 scheme, the LB's are the pass rushers, in a 4-3 scheme there are DE's, in zone blitzing a DT is at linebacker and the linebacker blitzes. So if you watched the Ravens at all you would not make this argument because it doesn't apply and you can't support it.

How do INT's fit into your "well rounded" definition?

btw - Aaron Kampman had 62 tackles and 9.5 sacks at DT last year, Ngata had 55 tackles and 0 sacks. Who would you rather have?

***Kampman is 6'4" 265lbs and Ngata is 6'4' 345 lbs.

Thanks for that super simplistic view of defensive schemes. As for the 3-4/4-3 comparison I'm not entirely sure what that is relevant with regards to the Ravens, we play both fronts and in fact played more snaps last year in a 4-3 front than 3-4, not by much (about 27% to 23%) but more snaps in a 4-3.

Also your comparison for Kampman I don't get what you're getting at in the slightest, Kampman played DE last year and will be playing 3-4 OLB this year for Green Bay, so I've no idea why you want to draw that comparison at all.

[UKRavenStockers]

This is only partially true. More accurate is to say that they need to give him a blow somewhere, so why not on those spots? He's still a decent pass rusher, he's just not as dominant at it as he is in other aspects of the game.

More to the point, name the DTs/NTs not on that list that you think are better? I don't know of any...

- C -

I agree with you that it makes sense to give him a blow on passing downs when we've got better interior pass rushers, but I also think it's an indictment of his pass rushing skills that it is so simple to give him his breaks on passing downs. If he was as rounded a DT as guys like Kevin Williams and Haynesworth etc. that many want to compare Ngata to he'd be getting his breaks on running and passing downs to keep him out there on the key passing plays as well.

For our scheme and for what we ask him to do I'm not going to dispute that Ngata (822 snaps in 19 games, 43.2 snaps per game) is as good as there is in the league and I'd not trade him in for anyone considering what he can do now within our scheme and his future upside, but in terms of all-round ability as a DT compared to others around the league he wouldn't make my top 5 just yet. His play against the run alone determines that he's a top 10 talent, but I can't put him in my top 5 yet. That'd go something along the lines of:

- Kevin Williams - Brutally disruptive against run & pass, been doing what Haynesworth does for longer and not merely in contract years. (995 snaps in 17 games, 58.5 snaps per game)

- Albert Haynesworth - He may have only fulfilled his potential in his contract years but he was brutally dominant in both run and pass, Ngata can match his play against the run but his pass rushing is world's different. They're different players in that regard but Haynesworth is still the markedly better player IMO. (735 snaps in 15 games, 49 snaps per game)

- Jay Ratliff - This one I'll probably get shouted down for but he is the centre-piece of the Cowboys D-line, was even with Chris Canty in town and he shows what an NT can do rushing the passer and taking on one-on-one blocks in the middle of the line, particularly against centres who are typically the least athletically gifted players on the O-line. Not going to attract the double teams that Ngata does but in terms of beating blocks to make tackles he's as good and rushing the passer he's massively better. (694 snaps in 16 games, 43.4 snaps per game)

- Marcus Stroud - Again, all round talent at DT. Slipped under the radar with his move to Buffalo but he was superb and unnoticed last year both against the run and pass. (Not done the Bills full season yet but currently 457 snaps through 9 games, 50.8 snaps per game)

- Jamal Williams - Slowing down with injuries but still absolutely class up the middle of the Chargers defence against the run. This is who Ngata will likely push past in the near future but I don't think he's quite there yet. (Not done the Chargers full season yet but currently 462 snaps through 11 games, 42 snaps per game)


I guess what this all boils down to is how you balance a DT's play against the run in comparison to their play as a pass rusher. If you just want the run defence then sure, Ngata is probably top 5, probably top 2 with Williams. But I think you've got to respect the true force as pass rushers that the likes of Williams, Haynesworth and Ratliff are and give them their due as being a level above Ngata as all-round DTs.

As a break down of Ngata's snaps last year as with these guys above, Ngata played 822 snaps in 19 games, 43.2 snaps per game. In those 822 snaps he played the run 358 times, rushed the passer 438 times and dropped into coverage 26 times. For those 438 pass rushes he got 2 sacks (week 8 against Oakland & Conference title game in Pittsburgh)) and hit the QB 9 times. Not exactly massive returns for the number of times after the QB, even for an NT.

Again, I'm not saying Ngata isn't up there, but he's not quite in the top level just yet IMO.

[Jeremiah W]

I would not trade Nagta for any of those guys. Kevin Williams and Tommie Harris when healthy are awsome and more in the Sapp mold, but I still would rather have the big 2 gap guy that may not get the sack but will collapse the pocket if not doubled. Nagta forces a lot of 3rd and longs by blowing up run plays, and may cause us to get a sack or turnover even when he is resting on the sideline.

[52decleetzu]

I agree with you that it makes sense to give him a blow on passing downs when we've got better interior pass rushers, but I also think it's an indictment of his pass rushing skills that it is so simple to give him his breaks on passing downs. If he was as rounded a DT as guys like Kevin Williams and Haynesworth etc. that many want to compare Ngata to he'd be getting his breaks on running and passing downs to keep him out there on the key passing plays as well.

For our scheme and for what we ask him to do I'm not going to dispute that Ngata (822 snaps in 19 games, 43.2 snaps per game) is as good as there is in the league and I'd not trade him in for anyone considering what he can do now within our scheme and his future upside, but in terms of all-round ability as a DT compared to others around the league he wouldn't make my top 5 just yet. His play against the run alone determines that he's a top 10 talent, but I can't put him in my top 5 yet. That'd go something along the lines of:

- Kevin Williams - Brutally disruptive against run & pass, been doing what Haynesworth does for longer and not merely in contract years. (995 snaps in 17 games, 58.5 snaps per game)

- Albert Haynesworth - He may have only fulfilled his potential in his contract years but he was brutally dominant in both run and pass, Ngata can match his play against the run but his pass rushing is world's different. They're different players in that regard but Haynesworth is still the markedly better player IMO. (735 snaps in 15 games, 49 snaps per game)

- Jay Ratliff - This one I'll probably get shouted down for but he is the centre-piece of the Cowboys D-line, was even with Chris Canty in town and he shows what an NT can do rushing the passer and taking on one-on-one blocks in the middle of the line, particularly against centres who are typically the least athletically gifted players on the O-line. Not going to attract the double teams that Ngata does but in terms of beating blocks to make tackles he's as good and rushing the passer he's massively better. (694 snaps in 16 games, 43.4 snaps per game)

- Marcus Stroud - Again, all round talent at DT. Slipped under the radar with his move to Buffalo but he was superb and unnoticed last year both against the run and pass. (Not done the Bills full season yet but currently 457 snaps through 9 games, 50.8 snaps per game)

- Jamal Williams - Slowing down with injuries but still absolutely class up the middle of the Chargers defence against the run. This is who Ngata will likely push past in the near future but I don't think he's quite there yet. (Not done the Chargers full season yet but currently 462 snaps through 11 games, 42 snaps per game)


I guess what this all boils down to is how you balance a DT's play against the run in comparison to their play as a pass rusher. If you just want the run defence then sure, Ngata is probably top 5, probably top 2 with Williams. But I think you've got to respect the true force as pass rushers that the likes of Williams, Haynesworth and Ratliff are and give them their due as being a level above Ngata as all-round DTs.

As a break down of Ngata's snaps last year as with these guys above, Ngata played 822 snaps in 19 games, 43.2 snaps per game. In those 822 snaps he played the run 358 times, rushed the passer 438 times and dropped into coverage 26 times. For those 438 pass rushes he got 2 sacks (week 8 against Oakland & Conference title game in Pittsburgh)) and hit the QB 9 times. Not exactly massive returns for the number of times after the QB, even for an NT.

Again, I'm not saying Ngata isn't up there, but he's not quite in the top level just yet IMO.

Jay Ratliff and Marcus Stroud????

Put down the crack pipe and get back to reality.

Marcus Stroud was just traded for a 3rd and a 5th last year,I doubt that the entire league wouldnt pony up more than that for a "top 5 DT" Stroud was at the top of his game 3 years ago,and might have been in the conversation then but not anymore.

Jay Ratliff anchored the TWELFTH ranked run defense for the Cowboys.Oh and BTW the Cowboys have been searching for a true NT for a while now,and even experimented with Ratliff at DE in training camp last year.He is 6'4 302 and more suited for DE,way to light to be a "premier NT like you claim"

But I forgot your criteria apparently is sacks so he fits the bill.

Here is a good article from right before the draft about the status of the Cowboys NT position...

http://www.blueandsilverreport.com/2009/01/31/wheres-the-beef-2009s-crop-of-defensive-tackle-prospects/


Where’s The Beef? 2009’s Crop of Defensive Tackle Prospects

Posted: January 31, 2009 @ 9:35 pm

The consensus opinion among Cowboy fans and league “experts” is that the Cowboys defense needs to add a run-stuffing, space-eating nose tackle to a defense that ranked 12th against the run in 2008. While perusing this year’s list of draft eligible defensive tackles, it becomes quickly evident that this year’s class of cloggers is a bit short on heft. There are just not a ton of 3-4 style defensive tackles in this draft. Of the top 40 prospects at the position, only four tip the scales at more than 315 lbs. Of course, not every 3-4 nose tackle has to be a 350 lb. monster. Jason Ferguson has held the position down for quite some time at about 305 lbs. Good strength and balance, coupled with superb technique can compensate for a lack of overwhelming size.

As you can see, it has been a bit of a mixed bag as far as drafting nose tackles in recent history. And with a thin class of draftees, the Cowboys may have to venture beyond all conventional thinking to plug this hole. Is Magnus Ver Magnusson busy? Can’t we just re-sign Marcus Spears, and hook him up with a platinum Golden Corral pass? Honestly, tell me that dude ain’t the second coming of Gilbert Brown waiting to happen.

In all seriousness, nose tackle is a legitimate need for the Dallas Cowboys. The list of two-gapping free agents-to-be leaves a lot to be desired, and the draft class is skimpy. The Cowboys may have to settle for another slightly undersized penetrator who can at least give Ratliff an occasional breather. If there is not a nose to be had who can free up Ratliff to play some end, the defense could still benefit from always having a fresh body in the middle. However the front office chooses to address this need, the decision will go a long way in determining whether or not a defense that showed flashes of greatness can take the next step forward.


There are a couple of other guys you could have thrown in the mix like Shaun Rogers and Kris Jenkins,but Stroud and Ratliff aren't in the conversation.

Anytime you get into these "top 5 this or that at this position" there is no true way to measure who is number 1 2 3 etc,just that these are the top guys at the position.Ngata is easily in the top 5,and because of his age I wouldnt trade him for ANY of those other guys who are all up there near 30 years old.Ngata will be anchoring our line for the next 8 years while those guys are crossing 30 and slipping with their play and have limited time left as dominant players.

[Rex Thunder]

I'll probably be a rare dissenting voice in this thread but their rankings for Wilfork, Ngata and Canty are all extremely generous in my opinion. Wilfork and Ngata are both tremendous against the run but aren't rounded football players, neither's ability as a pass rusher is good enough for me to consider them top 5 DTs, and as for Canty, he's barely played a down as a 4-3 DT in his career, he was a 3-4 end in Dallas and when he was in for their 4 man lines in passing situations it was at end as often as tackle.

Ngata's run defence isn't far short of being as good as there is, but his pass rushing is distinctly average, there are more than 3 better all-round DTs in the NFL CURRENTLY than Ngata for my money.

Dude don't make bold proclamations like that without backing them up. Who else is better?? Ngata is extremely athletic and well rounded. He played the part given to him by Rex Ryan and did it very well. The dude was getting doubled and tripled on plays and you expect him to also be a top rusher?

Where are you getting this stuff? The interception in the end zone- that probably won the game in Houston- was one of the most athletic plays I've ever seen by a d-lineman.

[UKRavenGordon]

Dude don't make bold proclamations like that without backing them up. Who else is better?? Ngata is extremely athletic and well rounded. He played the part given to him by Rex Ryan and did it very well. The dude was getting doubled and tripled on plays and you expect him to also be a top rusher?

Where are you getting this stuff? The interception in the end zone- that probably won the game in Houston- was one of the most athletic plays I've ever seen by a d-lineman.

I'd love to disagree with Stockers here because I think Ngata is fantastic. The truth is that his job is to analyze football games. You can view the site he works for by clicking the link in his signature. If he says that Stroud and Ratliff outperformed Ngata then take it to the bank that they did.

[HoustonRaven]

Why are people jumping on Stockers? Because he is saying something against the emotion of Ravens fans?

He isnt saying Ngata doesnt have talent or that he isnt one hell of an athlete.

He is simply saying there are a select two or three in the league that are better then him at this moment.

And Im sorry, but the INT against Houston was not a game turner. We had that game from the start. Yes, it was one hell of a play, but some game changing event in the clutch.

[52decleetzu]

Why are people jumping on Stockers? Because he is saying something against the emotion of Ravens fans?

He isnt saying Ngata doesnt have talent or that he isnt one hell of an athlete.

He is simply saying there are a select two or three in the league that are better then him at this moment.

And Im sorry, but the INT against Houston was not a game turner. We had that game from the start. Yes, it was one hell of a play, but some game changing event in the clutch.

Could it be because he is wrong??? Maybe?

Why dont you go read my post over again,with the facts to back up what I said included.

To put a guy like Jay freaking Ratliff who isnt even a true NT in the mix and Stroud to a lesser degree is ridiculous.Now if you want top put a guy like Jenkins or Rogers in there we could have and argument.

Either way,Ngata is maybe the 6th best at WORST.But again he is 25 while the others are all 30 and over...I will take Ngata 6 days a week and twice on Sunday over all of those guys.

[HoustonRaven]

I didnt know opinions were right or wrong. My bad. I guess we all dont have the acumen you have. :261695:

And I did read your post and his. You make valid points. Stockers makes valid points.

And like I said, he is not discrediting Ngata in any way, shape or form.

It is not I who needs to re-read what he wrote. That much is obvious.

[Jeremiah W]

The Ravens ran Rattliff right over when the season was on the line. Brown and Grubbs mashed him into the turf on both of the season breaking/ record breaking long runs to close out the cowboys.

The Dallas D had a good late surge led by Ware and his 20 sacks, but they were suspect, with more speed than substance up front.

Stroud, Rodgers and Jenkins all started out hot last year, but none of them were still stuffing fools down the stretch like Nagta was. He got better as the year went on, and should continue to improve for a while. He should be better than Haynesworth by the time he is that age.

Nagta, Ray, Reed and even Sizzle are sort of like our Jim Brown, or Bubba Smith, Jonny U, or what ever, and the stats argument was best summed up by Jim Brown when compared to Franco Harris.

“Why would a 230-pound man run out of bounds?” Brown once said, per Freeman’s book. “Why is everyone dancing, mugging for the camera? Where’s the danger in the game? Where are the characters and the warriors? You talk about records. Why even compare me to Franco? He played thirteen years, I played nine. He played something like fifty more games. Man gets four strikes to my three, where’s the significance? My performance spoke for itself. I don’t want to hear any shit about Franco.”

[jonboy79]

Shaun Rogers sucks.

[UKRavenGordon]

Could it be because he is wrong??? Maybe?

Why dont you go read my post over again,with the facts to back up what I said included.

To put a guy like Jay freaking Ratliff who isnt even a true NT in the mix and Stroud to a lesser degree is ridiculous.Now if you want top put a guy like Jenkins or Rogers in there we could have and argument.

Either way,Ngata is maybe the 6th best at WORST.But again he is 25 while the others are all 30 and over...I will take Ngata 6 days a week and twice on Sunday over all of those guys.

Point 1. Jay Ratliff is as much not a true NT as Kelly Gregg was when everyone was slating him. Just because you're not 340lbs doesn't mean you're not a capable NT.

Point 2. Nobody is saying they would gladly trade away Ngata. All that was said is that CURRENTLY he's not the 4th best DT in the NFL.

[Lee Van Cleef]

What I saw of Ratliff was quite impressive, I thought.

As for those big runs... I can only remember the Willis run in good detail. The nose got double teamed out of the hole by Brown face-up and Chester on an excellent down-block. That play was much more a result of the defense playing up in the box, leaving the safeties taking shallow angles.

[Filmstudy]

Two things, 1. Ngata isn't supposed to be rushing the QB in our scheme... He's supposed to be eating blockers so Suggs, Gooden, Ray, and JJ can eat QBs. 2... Name the ones you think are better than Ngata.

That's right on Effo. When the Ravens had 60 sacks in 2006, Ngata (1 sack) was 2nd on the team to JJ (1.5 sacks) in sacks as a percentage of pass plays while they were in the game. The majority of those were eating doubles so the Ravens could free Scott, Pryce, Suggs, and Thomas to beat singles. Ngata accomplished it with mass and explosiveness, JJ with tremendous fakes dropping into coverage.

Stockers,

I certainly respect your opinion re Ngata given the amount of time you spend with the video, but I'd disagree on this one. I think he did not have quite the year in 2008 that he did in 2007, but he remains the primary reason you can't run on the Ravens. That ability is particularly important to a defense with poor tacklers in the secondary like the 2009 Ravens without Landry and with Reed ailing for the first 8-10 games. I know you like him as much as I do as a run defender.

As to his value to the pass defense, I have to ask if that's based on the way he grades out by the system on profootballfocus.com (a site I highly recommend, BTW)? I don't know how Neil's system credits a DT who takes a double when another pass rusher gets a sack, QH, or pressure by beating a single. He is not Haynesworth or Sapp or Rodgers as a pass rusher, but I'm not convinced he doesn't create similar opportunities for others.

[Jeremiah W]

That's right on Effo. When the Ravens had 60 sacks in 2006, Ngata (1 sack) was 2nd on the team to JJ (1.5 sacks) in sacks as a percentage of pass plays while they were in the game. The majority of those were eating doubles so the Ravens could free Scott, Pryce, Suggs, and Thomas to beat singles. Ngata accomplished it with mass and explosiveness, JJ with tremendous fakes dropping into coverage.

Stockers,

I certainly respect your opinion re Ngata given the amount of time you spend with the video, but I'd disagree on this one. I think he did not have quite the year in 2008 that he did in 2007, but he remains the primary reason you can't run on the Ravens. That ability is particularly important to a defense with poor tacklers in the secondary like the 2009 Ravens without Landry and with Reed ailing for the first 8-10 games. I know you like him as much as I do as a run defender.

As to his value to the pass defense, I have to ask if that's based on the way he grades out by the system on profootballfocus.com (a site I highly recommend, BTW)? I don't know how Neil's system credits a DT who takes a double when another pass rusher gets a sack, QH, or pressure by beating a single. He is not Haynesworth or Sapp or Rodgers as a pass rusher, but I'm not convinced he doesn't create similar opportunities for others.

good stuff.

What Nagta does is beat his man and hold his ground even when doubled. The Ravens were able to double Rattliff and root him right out of the way when they knew we were running. Tha does not happen to us because Nagta explodes into the first guy and disrupts any kind of possible stretch or pull play, and allows Ray to scrape off his back where ever the ball goes, down hill and behind or at the line.

Those 3rd and short situations are game changing, and Nagta makes a ton of them as well as forcing a lot of the 3rd and longs that create direct turnovers and sacks.

[Dave Lap]

In terms of physical abilities, Shawn Rodgers was one of my top 3 DTs last year. His level of play, when he's on, is probably second to none. .

There you go. He should have been number 1 or 2 on the list.

UKStockers is right. Ngata hasn't shown that he can rush the passer yet. He's still young and can improve in this area. Filmstudy, I don't watch as much film as you, but I don't remember Ngata taking many doubles on pass protection. I recall that Trevor Pryce seemed to draw them consistently in the first 2/3 of the season.

His dropping back into coverage was cool but only works if he's directly between the QB and his receiver. Let's face it, he's not going to do any serious scampering around in the secondary. We need him to rush the passer better.

He IS a stud, no doubt about it but he's not elite yet....

[baltimore_hokie]

There you go. He should have been number 1 or 2 on the list.

UKStockers is right. Ngata hasn't shown that he can rush the passer yet. He's still young and can improve in this area. Filmstudy, I don't watch as much film as you, but I don't remember Ngata taking many doubles on pass protection. I recall that Trevor Pryce seemed to draw them consistently in the first 2/3 of the season.

His dropping back into coverage was cool but only works if he's directly between the QB and his receiver. Let's face it, he's not going to do any serious scampering around in the secondary. We need him to rush the passer better.

He IS a stud, no doubt about it but he's not elite yet....

dude, you're not getting what everyone is saying here. ngata IS elite at what he is asked to do. a 3-4 DT is not asked to rush the passer, ngata will never be a 5-10 sack guy in our system (shaun rogers only had 4.5 in a solid season with the brownies this past year, kris jenkins had 3.5). with ngata, we will be able to have several guys that are in or above that range but his job is not to get after the passer. saying that he is not elite because he doesn't have tons of sacks is like saying that ed reed isn't elite because he doesn't tally a monster number of tackles...or like saying patrick willis isn't an elite LB because he only had one sack this past season. ngata's stats are a product of his place in our system and our system's success is a product of ngata's ability to stuff gaps up front. if you, like most schmucks voting for the pro bowl, don't consider ngata elite because he only had one sack this past year, then you obviously don't know enough about the ravens or football in general to be entitled to a vote.

[Jeremiah W]

dude, you're not getting what everyone is saying here. ngata IS elite at what he is asked to do. a 3-4 DT is not asked to rush the passer, ngata will never be a 5-10 sack guy in our system (shaun rogers only had 4.5 in a solid season with the brownies this past year, kris jenkins had 3.5). with ngata, we will be able to have several guys that are in or above that range but his job is not to get after the passer. saying that he is not elite because he doesn't have tons of sacks is like saying that ed reed isn't elite because he doesn't tally a monster number of tackles...or like saying patrick willis isn't an elite LB because he only had one sack this past season. ngata's stats are a product of his place in our system and our system's success is a product of ngata's ability to stuff gaps up front. if you, like most schmucks voting for the pro bowl, don't consider ngata elite because he only had one sack this past year, then you obviously don't know enough about the ravens or football in general to be entitled to a vote.
well said. There are a lot of stat freaks that are able to make the case based on numbers but use the wrong ones. Tackles and sacks do not matter more than defensive ranking, ypc, redzone precentage and points allowed.

Rex ran some wild scheme stuff from the 3-4 where he asked guys to do what they do best. Rushing the Qb is not what Nagta does best, but on pass plays he still plays a big role in getting the stop. The Raven DT position is more like extra middle linebackers on pass plays that just play an area and react to the O line and either try to free up a blitzer or play a passing lane and spy the QB. Pryce was the only guy that looked like it was his main job at Dt to rush the Qb. The rest of them all seem to come off the ball looking to lock up the guy in front of them and read and react. Classic 2 gap style where if you penetrate too far it open up a hole in the moving pickett fence concept. Rex asked our front guys to move the line of scrimage back a yard then be able to slide side to side in pursuit or stay in your lane and swat down the pass. Nagta took that coaching extremly well and is the main reason Ray is back on top of his game. Nagta makes his reads real easy and lets him and the rest of the linebackers attack down hill almost all the time.

[UKRavenGordon]

dude, you're not getting what everyone is saying here. ngata IS elite at what he is asked to do. a 3-4 DT is not asked to rush the passer, ngata will never be a 5-10 sack guy in our system (shaun rogers only had 4.5 in a solid season with the brownies this past year, kris jenkins had 3.5). with ngata, we will be able to have several guys that are in or above that range but his job is not to get after the passer. saying that he is not elite because he doesn't have tons of sacks is like saying that ed reed isn't elite because he doesn't tally a monster number of tackles...or like saying patrick willis isn't an elite LB because he only had one sack this past season. ngata's stats are a product of his place in our system and our system's success is a product of ngata's ability to stuff gaps up front. if you, like most schmucks voting for the pro bowl, don't consider ngata elite because he only had one sack this past year, then you obviously don't know enough about the ravens or football in general to be entitled to a vote.

I hate that. People who think they know more than everybody else and anyone who disagree is just some 'schmuck'. We lined up more 4-3 than 3-4 last year anyway but thats not the point. All that's being said is that Ngata hasn't become elite yet with regards to his pass rushing abilities.

The only way your arguement carries any weight is if Ngata was at NO POINT, last year asked to rush the passer. Getting to the QB is a part of his game and its the one part of his game he needs to work on. Nobody is expecting a 10 sack season but once he can add getting to the QB (either by Sacks, or Hits and Pressures) then he'll become an even better player. Right now he's top 10. I'd have Haynesworth, Ratliff, Kevin Williams, Stroud, Rodgers, and maybe Kyle Williams above him based on the past season.

But please, tell me that I don't know enough about the Ravens or the NFL...

[Jeremiah W]

I hate that. People who think they know more than everybody else and anyone who disagree is just some 'schmuck'. We lined up more 4-3 than 3-4 last year anyway but thats not the point. All that's being said is that Ngata hasn't become elite yet with regards to his pass rushing abilities.

The only way your arguement carries any weight is if Ngata was at NO POINT, last year asked to rush the passer. Getting to the QB is a part of his game and its the one part of his game he needs to work on. Nobody is expecting a 10 sack season but once he can add getting to the QB (either by Sacks, or Hits and Pressures) then he'll become an even better player. Right now he's top 10. I'd have Haynesworth, Ratliff, Kevin Williams, Stroud, Rodgers, and maybe Kyle Williams above him based on the past season.

But please, tell me that I don't know enough about the Ravens or the NFL...

People take the opinion stuff personal. Wilfork, Hampton and Pat Williams are more comparable players to Nagta. That is the role he plays, not the one gap stuff like Haynesworth, Kevin willaims and guys like that are asked to do. Nagta is supposed to not rush the QB most of the time they tell him to stop, look around, play a passing lane and then be part of the pursuit. When you go after the Qb with your interior Dts, it can get them out of position on draw plays and stuff like traps, screens and such. When they just play the area, they can take on any of those plays and may not get a tfl or sack, but get a 2 yard play and then a 3 and out.

[wickedsolo]

Could it be because he is wrong??? Maybe?

Why dont you go read my post over again,with the facts to back up what I said included.

To put a guy like Jay freaking Ratliff who isnt even a true NT in the mix and Stroud to a lesser degree is ridiculous.Now if you want top put a guy like Jenkins or Rogers in there we could have and argument.

Either way,Ngata is maybe the 6th best at WORST.But again he is 25 while the others are all 30 and over...I will take Ngata 6 days a week and twice on Sunday over all of those guys.

Completely agree man.

I will take Ngata over any of those DT's listed.

Haynesworth played really hard for a monster contract. We've yet to see if he can continue to play at a high level or if he will go back to being lazy and not playing his arse off every play.

With Ngata, you know you are getting 100% every play he is on the field for.

Ngata is the 1 guy that we really need to extend before he realizes that he is better than the guy who just got 100 million dollars.

He and Justin Bannan are the two main reasons why no one could really run on us last season.

[wickedsolo]

There you go. He should have been number 1 or 2 on the list.



Shaun Rogers is a blimp on the football field. When he actually feels like mustering the effort to give 100% on the field then he is a darn good DT...problem with him is that he takes plays off and has to come off the field often because of how overweight he is.

Ngata is 340lbs, but he never looks fat and out of shape. Rogers constantly looks like he is horrible overweight.

[Mr. Mojo Rizon]

Who cares what TSN thinks? Ravens are better off if all of these publications don't give Ngata an abundance of credit when it's time to belly up to the bargaining table.

The time to hesitate is through...No time to wallow in the mire

[psuasskicker]

Who cares what TSN thinks? Ravens are better off if all of these publications don't give Ngata an abundance of credit when it's time to belly up to the bargaining table.



Honestly, I don't think the media has even a little bit of impact on how the NFL regards their free agents or what they pay them.

This is evident from any draft you look at. Tyson Jackson rising to #3. Crabtree falling to #10, behind DHB. Moreno at #12. Larry English at #16. You can go all the way back to Quinn and Rodgers both dropping into the 20s. Where the media rates a guy has no bearing on where an NFL team rates a guy.

- C -

[Mr. Mojo Rizon]

Honestly, I don't think the media has even a little bit of impact on how the NFL regards their free agents or what they pay them.

Really? You really think this?

The media is part of the voting process for post season awards. You don't think those awards have a bearing on what an agent will demand for his client?

It's time for you to break on through to the other side

[psuasskicker]

Really? You really think this?

The media is part of the voting process for post season awards. You don't think those awards have a bearing on what an agent will demand for his client?

I think Jared Allen didn't win any awards two years ago and still signed a $72MM deal with $31MM guaranteed; at the time the richest deal ever for a defensive player.

I think this year's DPotY was not Haynesworth, it was Harrison. Yet Haynesworth signed what was effectively a 4 year, $48MM deal with $41MM guaranteed; and Harrison signed a 6 year, $51MM deal with $20MM guaranteed.

Yeah. I really think the media has very little to do with what these guys get paid.

- C -

[Mr. Mojo Rizon]

Yeah. I really think the media has very little to do with what these guys get paid.

Both Allen and Haynesworth were All Pros in '07 & '08. How does an NFL player become an All Pro. Hmmm, would you believe a nationwide panel of 50 writers and broadcasters who cover the NFL? I think they are credentialed members of the media.

But I'm sure that notoriety had absolutely NOTHING to do with either player making all that coin. How naive of me.:eyes:

People are strange, When you're a stranger
Faces look ugly, When you're alone.

[psuasskicker]

Both Allen and Haynesworth were All Pros in '07 & '08. How does an NFL player become an All Pro. Hmmm, would you believe a nationwide panel of 50 writers and broadcasters who cover the NFL? I think they are credentialed members of the media.

But I'm sure that notoriety had absolutely NOTHING to do with either player making all that coin. How naive of me.:eyes:

Oh come on. You're acting like these guys would be completely unheard to all the other NFL GMs if the media weren't reporting on them! The Pro Bowl players are determined by the coaches, fans and players; that list is virtually the same as the All Pro list. It's not like it's some mystery who's great and who's not. Dan Snyder didn't pick up the paper one morning, see the list of All Pros, and say "Wow, that Haynesworth guy must be pretty good! I think I'll spend twelve mil a year and get me som'a that!"

So what you're basically saying is that if the media hadn't voted Haynesworth an All Pro last year, that his deal would have been .... ???

4 years, $36MM? Is 25% enough to consider that enough of an impact on his contract?

4 years, $42MM?

4 years, $46MM?

If Albert Haynesworth wasn't an All Pro last year, I think there's pretty much no chance his deal was anything less than what it was.

I'm sorry, but media people grossly overestimate their impact on how the NFL operates (or any sport for that matter). This cannot be more clear by the ridiculous abundance of mock drafts in the three months prior to the actual draft, and then the subsequent immediate passing around of draft grades regarding who got the best value in all of their picks.

The perfect example of this is Cincinnati's draft this year. The media is falling all over themselves fawning over how awesome that draft was. You know what? Some 30ish other GMs passed on Rey Maualuga...some more than once. Same thing for Michael Johnson, except almost all of them passed on the guy more than once. That wasn't an accident. There's a reason he fell where he fell. The media saying he was a huge steal early in the third round is quite simply pretentious. If he was such a gigantic steal, then Chicago would have taken him as their DE two picks earlier. Or the Cardinals eight picks earlier. Or the Ravens 14 picks earlier. Or any of the other 12 teams that passed on him for a position other than DE before the Bengals took him where they did.

Same thing here. Sorry, I cannot believe that the media has any material impact on what sort of a contract a player gets. Except one potential situation...if the media investigates something and uncovers a huge skeleton in a player's closet. Then yeah, sure they will. Otherwise, no, I don't buy it even a little bit.

- C -

[Mr. Mojo Rizon]

Oh come on. You're acting like these guys would be completely unheard to all the other NFL GMs if the media weren't reporting on them!

Down boy! Never said this...these are your words...as are these:


Honestly, I don't think the media has even a little bit of impact on how the NFL regards their free agents or what they pay them.

That's what I disagree with. The media does impact what these guys are paid. The aren't totally responsible but they have an impact. Moreover bigger media markets attract higher paid players.

And in case you haven't checked, All Pro is more prestigious than Pro Bowler.

Well, show me the way
To the next whiskey bar
Oh, don't ask why
Oh, don't ask why

[Dave Lap]

a 3-4 DT is not asked to rush the passer,


Are you trying to tell me that he's NOT asked to rush the passer? That's right I forgot. He's supposed to stand there and count 1 Mississippi, 2 Mississippi..If you asked any of the Ravens coaches they would disagree with you on that.

Any evaluation of any defensive lineman must include their ability to rush the passer. The reason why your evaluation of Ngata is unsound is because you aren't factoring in a vital aspect of the position.

He's almost elite as a NT but not quite there yet.

Oh, sorry I forgot I'm not entitled to an opinion.

[baltimore_hokie]

i'm saying that his primary task is to eat up blockers so that the other lineman/linebackers are at an advantage rushing the passer. he is asked to be huge and occupy multiple lineman, rather than be quick off the ball to rush the passer. look around the league at the other elite 3-4 DT's and they have a max of 5 sacks. the majority of the time, ngata collapsing the pocket would open up the middle of the defense to traps, screens, etc rather than producing sacks anyway. every play, we can count on the middle of the defense being clogged up and in place, that wall that ngata creates would not be there to solidify our defense and run game if he in constantly in the backfield. all i'm saying is that you can't compare stats from players from different systems equally, it's apples and oranges to look at fat albert's sacks vs ngata's sacks (like i said in previous posts looking at patrick willis, 4-3 MLB vs. 3-4 MLB, and ed reed vs other safeties). and if you think marcus stroud is really better than ngata, well i really don't need to continue this conversation.

[Jeremiah W]

Are you trying to tell me that he's NOT asked to rush the passer? That's right I forgot. He's supposed to stand there and count 1 Mississippi, 2 Mississippi..I think if you asked any of the Ravens coaches they would disagree with you on that.

Any evaluation of any defensive lineman must include their ability to rush the passer. The reason why your evaluation of Ngata is unsound is because you aren't factoring that in appropriately.

What Nagta did on the play he got the pick vs the Texans is what he is coached to do when he reads pass. Stay in his lane and become a pass defender, not a pass rusher. The Raven DTs other than Pryce seem to stop rushing and play zone D when they read pass.

It does make sense when you see the rest of the D. They like to drop the LBs in coverage and need some help with the draws, screens and drag routes. Our Dts make a ton of tackles in pursuit because they do not get tangled up in a pass rush. I think that is also why BIg B is able to beat our blitz, because there is only one guy there to hit him and he has room to step up and avoid them with not much DT pressure pushing the pocket.
Philly and the Titans were kicking the crap out of Ben with the Dts getting to him up the middle when he held the ball and tried to step up. The Titans did it without Haynesworth.

Nagta should be able to get to the Qb more often than he has, and I think even if the new DC does not tell him to rush the Qb more his agent will.

I think both Nagta and Suggs could get much better sack numbers in more of a 4-3 one gap attacking kind of scheme, and I think this DC will use a little more of those looks on passing downs and use different pressure packages than Rex.

[Dave Lap]

[QUOTE= and if you think marcus stroud is really better than ngata, well i really don't need to continue this conversation.[/QUOTE]

I never said word one about Marcus Stroud. Where did you get that?

As far as continuing this conversation, why would I want to end it when you've been so delightful to talk with?

[UKRavenGordon]

We only ran a 3-4 about 25-30% of the time last year so calling Ngata a 3-4 Nose is a bit of a stretch IMO.

[baltimore_hokie]

we ran a 3-4 throughout this year, whether suggs/johsnon had their hand in the dirt or not. their ability to drop back in coverage or rush the passer doesn't change the fact that we still have 4 LB's on the field.

[UKRavenGordon]

we ran a 3-4 throughout this year, whether suggs/johsnon had their hand in the dirt or not. their ability to drop back in coverage or rush the passer doesn't change the fact that we still have 4 LB's on the field.

3 LBs and 1 DE/OLB

[baltimore_hokie]

3 LBs and 1 DE/OLB

2 LB and 2 DE/OLB. what's your point?

[UKRavenGordon]

2 LB and 2 DE/OLB. what's your point?

You said we had 4 LBs on the field, we didn't.

[jonboy79]

You said we had 4 LBs on the field, we didn't.

It is inaccurate to say that Suggs and JJ are not Both LBers, despite how they are "currently" lined up. If you move from the 4-3 to 3-4 withour changing personnel, you have 4 LBers on the field....

[baltimore_hokie]

You said we had 4 LBs on the field, we didn't.

dude, all 4 guys we have out there have the ability to play a linebacker role and drop into coverage. same players, same system no matter if there hand is down or not.

[Jeremiah W]

Why is this turning into an argument about what our OLB/ DE players do?

Nagta is a beast. He may never get a lot of sacks, but he does make a lot of plays just by pushing the man in front of him back on almost every snap. He is basically a guard on D. his main job is to block for the linebackers, and play sort of like an O lineman on D on pass plays as well. That is also why he makes a great redzone TE and Grubbs got snap as a goal line DT. Blocking and beating the block, moving the line of scrimmage is a huge part of the game. Most of the DTs that get sacks and tackles for loss, do it by getting by a guy, not by going through them like Nagta is asked to do when he does rush and not drop into the short zones like they ask him to do effectivly.

[UKRavenGordon]

Why is this turning into an argument about what our OLB/ DE players do?

Nagta is a beast. He may never get a lot of sacks, but he does make a lot of plays just by pushing the man in front of him back on almost every snap. He is basically a guard on D. his main job is to block for the linebackers, and play sort of like an O lineman on D on pass plays as well. That is also why he makes a great redzone TE and Grubbs got snap as a goal line DT. Blocking and beating the block, moving the line of scrimmage is a huge part of the game. Most of the DTs that get sacks and tackles for loss, do it by getting by a guy, not by going through them like Nagta is asked to do when he does rush and not drop into the short zones like they ask him to do effectivly.

I'm done arguing with you now. That statement right there has ended any chance of a rational conversation. A Great redzone TE? :rolling:

[baltimore_hokie]

haha yeah, little bit of a stretch there, JW

[Jeremiah W]

How many times did we run the ball right behind one of his blocks for an easy TD? Red zone TE has to run block like a tackle and Nagta does it better than most of our tackles. Look back at some of the redzone TD runs. Nagta is out there crushing dudes and driving them like a sled.

He does have decent hands as well and would catch the ball if no one covers him.

I am not speculating here. Check the tape. He already did all that stuff and played a lot of snaps at TE.

[UKRavenGordon]

How many times did we run the ball right behind one of his blocks for an easy TD? Red zone TE has to run block like a tackle and Nagta does it better than most of our tackles. Look back at some of the redzone TD runs. Nagta is out there crushing dudes and driving them like a sled.

He does have decent hands as well and would catch the ball if no one covers him.

I am not speculating here. Check the tape. He already did all that stuff and played a lot of snaps at TE.


Answer to Question 1: Zero. Nadda. Zip. None.

Lot of snaps at TE? Try maybe 10.

[jonboy79]

Answer to Question 1: Zero. Nadda. Zip. None.

Lot of snaps at TE? Try maybe 10.

We scored behind him a minimum of twice that I remember... Running literally right behind Ngata...

Is he great, NO, the fact that he played simply showed our weakness in that area last season.

[Jeremiah W]

Answer to Question 1: Zero. Nadda. Zip. None.

Lot of snaps at TE? Try maybe 10.

OK how about in the playoffs?

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d80e38531/Willis-McGahee-Highlight-WK-20-vs-Steelers-2008

Looks like 92 blocking 56 down the line for a walk in by Willis to that side.

Nag gata on Harrison on the 1st TD.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d80e35e18/AFC-Championship-Willis-McGahee-highlights

[UKRavenGordon]

OK how about in the playoffs?

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d80e38531/Willis-McGahee-Highlight-WK-20-vs-Steelers-2008

Looks like 92 blocking 56 down the line for a walk in by Willis to that side.

Nag gata on Harrison on the 1st TD.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d80e35e18/AFC-Championship-Willis-McGahee-highlights

McLain blocks two players in that clip, on the outside... allowing him to walk into the end zone.

[Jeremiah W]

McLain blocks two players in that clip, on the outside... allowing him to walk into the end zone.

I think you missed the point.

Nag gata blocked Harrison on one TD run and Woodley on the other. I am not sure Heap would have or could have, or any of our RTs either.

[UKRavenGordon]

And the guy who blocked Harrison on the first TD? Has a 7 in his jersey number. Ngata was the guy running around in a circle not blocking anyone.

[UKRavenStockers]

OK how about in the playoffs?

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d80e38531/Willis-McGahee-Highlight-WK-20-vs-Steelers-2008

Looks like 92 blocking 56 down the line for a walk in by Willis to that side.

Nag gata on Harrison on the 1st TD.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d80e35e18/AFC-Championship-Willis-McGahee-highlights

The first one I'll give you, that's a nice down block he lays on 56, but that's far from a walk in, Willis has to break a tackle to get outside, Ngata gets a block but it's not the story of the play.

And on the first TD Ngata misses Harrison and Terry picks up the block.


I personally don't think Ngata is an asset at all on offence at TE. He saw maybe ten snaps there last year and the number of times he made a block was minimal. I'd like to see more depth at TE so he doesn't need to be out there. At FB, I can see the benefit, get him running downhill and I'd fancy his chances to clear a hole, but at TE I want guys who practice there every day (be that TEs or extra tackles) making those blocks, not a gimmick package with a DT, an athletically gifted DT, but a DT never the less.

[baltimore_hokie]

i remember him doing well at FB it seemed, but at TE he was not really a threat to catch the ball. it's nice to have the versatility either way.

[Jeremiah W]

The first one I'll give you, that's a nice down block he lays on 56, but that's far from a walk in, Willis has to break a tackle to get outside, Ngata gets a block but it's not the story of the play.

And on the first TD Ngata misses Harrison and Terry picks up the block.


I personally don't think Ngata is an asset at all on offence at TE. He saw maybe ten snaps there last year and the number of times he made a block was minimal. I'd like to see more depth at TE so he doesn't need to be out there. At FB, I can see the benefit, get him running downhill and I'd fancy his chances to clear a hole, but at TE I want guys who practice there every day (be that TEs or extra tackles) making those blocks, not a gimmick package with a DT, an athletically gifted DT, but a DT never the less.

He may not have touched him on the 1st play but he made him run out of the way and that is just as good as a pancake block in that situation, touch down.

Certian situations you would prefer to have a real TE out there, but there is no way around the fact that there is no way a guy beats Nagta in a shoving match. I would take him over a Sumo, and in the short yardage battles that win and lose football games, you need a guy like that you can count on to collapse the other side of teh line.

[jonboy79]

He may not have touched him on the 1st play but he made him run out of the way and that is just as good as a pancake block in that situation, touch down.

Certian situations you would prefer to have a real TE out there, but there is no way around the fact that there is no way a guy beats Nagta in a shoving match. I would take him over a Sumo, and in the short yardage battles that win and lose football games, you need a guy like that you can count on to collapse the other side of teh line.

I'd rather have Daniel Graham, Brandon Maleuna or Brandon Pettigrew over Ngata in any INLINE blocking situation... But as compared to Heap and LJ Smith, he may be better....
I'll repeat, the fact that he played hte position AT ALL, as well as the HUGE number of times we went unbalanced was NOTHING but a coverup for the fact that we didn't have nearly enough inline blocking TE's for Cam's liking.

[Jeremiah W]

I'd rather have Daniel Graham, Brandon Maleuna or Brandon Pettigrew over Ngata in any INLINE blocking situation... But as compared to Heap and LJ Smith, he may be better....
I'll repeat, the fact that he played hte position AT ALL, as well as the HUGE number of times we went unbalanced was NOTHING but a coverup for the fact that we didn't have nearly enough inline blocking TE's for Cam's liking.

Or maybe it was because it worked. Teams could not match up very well with our jumbo packages, while they did match up pretty well vs our base O or regular 2 TE sets.

[Filmstudy]

I personally don't think Ngata is an asset at all on offence at TE. He saw maybe ten snaps there last year and the number of times he made a block was minimal. I'd like to see more depth at TE so he doesn't need to be out there. At FB, I can see the benefit, get him running downhill and I'd fancy his chances to clear a hole, but at TE I want guys who practice there every day (be that TEs or extra tackles) making those blocks, not a gimmick package with a DT, an athletically gifted DT, but a DT never the less.

I must respectfully disagree Stockers. There are 4 things which tell me Ngata is effective:

1. The defense overstacks around him
2. They've run directly behind him on a good percentage of plays he's been in the game
3. He hasn't once been submarined by his opposite number, something goal line defenders try to do to get a wall of bodies in front of the carrier. When the team has only 3 rotational DT's available due to an injury, they'll use an offensive lineman to submarine. Grubbs played a couple of snaps in 2009 and I can recall Orlando Brown doing so at least twice in 2003. I would guess that it is difficult for someone who is not a DT to do, To me, that's just another reason why having a big man on the outside is valuable.
4. Heap has value as a receiver, but you don't need 5 guys in the pattern at the 1 yard line.
5. There are a wider set of play calls available to Cameron with Ngata in because the opposition can't effectively "set the edge" on Ngata's side with a DE or LB. Stretch and off-tackle runs, which are more problematic on a short field become real possibilities with him in.

Even if you think his blocking is raw, with which I agree, can't you project some improvement after he works on it for an entire camp? Ngata played 13 regular season snaps and 2 more at Pittsburgh in the AFCC. This might be a fun thing to review them all.

[jonboy79]

I must respectfully disagree Stockers. There are 4 things which tell me Ngata is effective:

1. The defense overstacks around him
2. They've run directly behind him on a good percentage of plays he's been in the game
3. He hasn't once been submarined by his opposite number, something goal line defenders try to do to get a wall of bodies in front of the carrier. When the team has only 3 rotational DT's available due to an injury, they'll use an offensive lineman to submarine. Grubbs played a couple of snaps in 2009 and I can recall Orlando Brown doing so at least twice in 2003. I would guess that it is difficult for someone who is not a DT to do, To me, that's just another reason why having a big man on the outside is valuable.
4. Heap has value as a receiver, but you don't need 5 guys in the pattern at the 1 yard line.
5. There are a wider set of play calls available to Cameron with Ngata in because the opposition can't effectively "set the edge" on Ngata's side with a DE or LB. Stretch and off-tackle runs, which are more problematic on a short field become real possibilities with him in.

Even if you think his blocking is raw, with which I agree, can't you project some improvement after he works on it for an entire camp? Ngata played 13 regular season snaps and 2 more at Pittsburgh in the AFCC. This might be a fun thing to review them all.

I think you just gave yourself an assignment. 13 snaps is nothing compared to your normal projects, and if I'm not mistaken, you know exactly when and where he did play.
I remember him being raw but effective.
I seem to remember a play where he was on the move and pulled a very Todd Heap=esque Ole' completely whiffing, but when locked on to someone I don't remember him losing the battle.

[UKRavenStockers]

I must respectfully disagree Stockers. There are 4 things which tell me Ngata is effective:

1. The defense overstacks around him
2. They've run directly behind him on a good percentage of plays he's been in the game
3. He hasn't once been submarined by his opposite number, something goal line defenders try to do to get a wall of bodies in front of the carrier. When the team has only 3 rotational DT's available due to an injury, they'll use an offensive lineman to submarine. Grubbs played a couple of snaps in 2009 and I can recall Orlando Brown doing so at least twice in 2003. I would guess that it is difficult for someone who is not a DT to do, To me, that's just another reason why having a big man on the outside is valuable.
4. Heap has value as a receiver, but you don't need 5 guys in the pattern at the 1 yard line.
5. There are a wider set of play calls available to Cameron with Ngata in because the opposition can't effectively "set the edge" on Ngata's side with a DE or LB. Stretch and off-tackle runs, which are more problematic on a short field become real possibilities with him in.

Even if you think his blocking is raw, with which I agree, can't you project some improvement after he works on it for an entire camp? Ngata played 13 regular season snaps and 2 more at Pittsburgh in the AFCC. This might be a fun thing to review them all.

Ken, first up, got your e-mail and I'm not sure why Ngata's offensive snaps aren't showing up in the offensive breakdown, I've brought it to Neil's attention to see if it's a problem with the database.

With regards Ngata blocking I certainly won't dispute his raw strength and power as a blocker and he has on occassion set the edge well and we've seen benefit from him, but all I'm saying is that I'd rather have more TEs on the roster some of whom are better blockers so that we don't need to put Ngata on the field. I still don't think we've achieved that necessarily and Ngata will again be out there by necessity than desire I think. Ideally I wouldn't want him on the field on offence, he brings something different to the field but I want him focusing on his defence. I really can't be bothered getting back in to the discussion about how good I and other posters here think Ngata currently is as an all round DT but he has other aspects of his game at his primary position that he needs to be working on camp, not working as a blocking TE.

To my mind Ngata is out there because he's better as a raw blocker than what we've got at TE for goal-line sets to get that initial push. That to me says more about the quality of our TEs as blockers than it does about Ngata. That said I'd still rather put O'Neil Cousins or someone like that out there as an extra blocker than Ngata, it gets them reps on the field and (in spite of how relatively raw Cousins is) they are more technically accomplished than Ngata.

[jonboy79]

Ken, first up, got your e-mail and I'm not sure why Ngata's offensive snaps aren't showing up in the offensive breakdown, I've brought it to Neil's attention to see if it's a problem with the database.

With regards Ngata blocking I certainly won't dispute his raw strength and power as a blocker and he has on occassion set the edge well and we've seen benefit from him, but all I'm saying is that I'd rather have more TEs on the roster some of whom are better blockers so that we don't need to put Ngata on the field. I still don't think we've achieved that necessarily and Ngata will again be out there by necessity than desire I think. Ideally I wouldn't want him on the field on offence, he brings something different to the field but I want him focusing on his defence. I really can't be bothered getting back in to the discussion about how good I and other posters here think Ngata currently is as an all round DT but he has other aspects of his game at his primary position that he needs to be working on camp, not working as a blocking TE.

To my mind Ngata is out there because he's better as a raw blocker than what we've got at TE for goal-line sets to get that initial push. That to me says more about the quality of our TEs as blockers than it does about Ngata. That said I'd still rather put O'Neil Cousins or someone like that out there as an extra blocker than Ngata, it gets them reps on the field and (in spite of how relatively raw Cousins is) they are more technically accomplished than Ngata.

I completely agree... I am still upset we got none of the three, Pettigrew, Richard Quinn and ANthony Hill in this past draft... We need a guy that can be a bit more of a threat to actually catch the ball, while being able to set the edge as good if not better...
TE is the weakest position on this roster.