Best & Worst Owners in Pro Sports

[HoustonRaven]

Not if this had been posted since I have been away, but I found it pretty interesting and accurate.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/football/nfl/05/08/nfl.owners/index.html

Baltimore gets two mentions, one good and one bad. Im sure you can guess which owner gets good scores and which gets bad ones.

[Dade]

No biggie.

http://www.ravens24x7.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38248

[RAVENOUS52]

One look at the difference in the stands between The Vault and Camden Yards on gameday tells you all you need to know about the owners of said franchises.:glasses:

[Jeremiah W]

I do not think Angelos is really that bad an owner. What was he going to do? The Skankees were buying the pennant in the pre seson with steroid freaks up and down the roster. They had almost all the balco boys other than Bonds and the Roid rocket, pill poppoing Pettit and thier slimy rat trainer providing a link to the premium juice. They also had the money. two hundred million plus in payroll.

What were the Sorryoles going to do other than scrape the bttom of the free agent barrel and pull out a b-12 breifcase cartel of caddy rim rockin gangsta shizzle suspects and bad farm hands juiced up enough to be Segui sucky and servicable or super slimy like Mygyie, Raffy and shrinking Sammy Sosa.

So now they seem to be purging the game of the named users Big Poppies with no more power, and all of a sudden the Skanks stink like the East river and the Devil is out of the Rays way to contention. Not because they changed thier name, but because the commish and union finally gnaged the game on the hghush.

The O's never used to out spend NY to contend, but with the ability to buy 8 30 hr hitters and 5 vet starters that still had 95mph stuff was just unstoppable. It looks like any team with a lot of young talent can now contend again, at least until the giant contracts of the A Frauds of the game expire and retire and they are replced with the best, mostly steriod free free agents.

[HoustonRaven]

I do not think Angelos is really that bad an owner. What was he going to do? The Skankees were buying the pennant in the pre seson with steroid freaks up and down the roster. They had almost all the balco boys other than Bonds and the Roid rocket, pill poppoing Pettit and thier slimy rat trainer providing a link to the premium juice. They also had the money. two hundred million plus in payroll.

What were the Sorryoles going to do other than scrape the bttom of the free agent barrel and pull out a b-12 breifcase cartel of caddy rim rockin gangsta shizzle suspects and bad farm hands juiced up enough to be Segui sucky and servicable or super slimy like Mygyie, Raffy and shrinking Sammy Sosa.

So now they seem to be purging the game of the named users Big Poppies with no more power, and all of a sudden the Skanks stink like the East river and the Devil is out of the Rays way to contention. Not because they changed thier name, but because the commish and union finally gnaged the game on the hghush.

The O's never used to out spend NY to contend, but with the ability to buy 8 30 hr hitters and 5 vet starters that still had 95mph stuff was just unstoppable. It looks like any team with a lot of young talent can now contend again, at least until the giant contracts of the A Frauds of the game expire and retire and they are replced with the best, mostly steriod free free agents.

.... and absolutely nothing of what you wrote has anything to do with Angelos or why he is a horrible owner.

To quote again from the SI piece "When the Baltimore lawyer took control of the team in 1993, it was a year removed from its Camden Yards debut with a stacked roster Angelos allowed former GM Pat Gillick to build. The O's went on to make the first of two consecutive ALCS appearances just three years later. Then Angelos began his notorious meddling, firing popular manager Davey Johnson, burning through another five managers, killing trades proposed by his GMs and stripping down one of baseball's proudest franchises. The O's haven't finished above .500 in 11 seasons since their last playoff appearance."

You truly are a multifaceted homer. Pretty sad.

[Jeremiah W]

.... and absolutely nothing of what you wrote has anything to do with Angelos or why he is a horrible owner.

To quote again from the SI piece "When the Baltimore lawyer took control of the team in 1993, it was a year removed from its Camden Yards debut with a stacked roster Angelos allowed former GM Pat Gillick to build. The O's went on to make the first of two consecutive ALCS appearances just three years later. Then Angelos began his notorious meddling, firing popular manager Davey Johnson, burning through another five managers, killing trades proposed by his GMs and stripping down one of baseball's proudest franchises. The O's haven't finished above .500 in 11 seasons since their last playoff appearance."

You truly are a multifaceted homer. Pretty sad.

Angelos is not that bad an owner because he had no chance at finishing better than 3rd anyway so why waste the money on juiced up players when you never know how long they will play well.
I am a Harm City Homer and I am not at all sad about it or oblivious to the mistakes made by my local teams that I do not hide my rooting interest in.

The O's made mistakes but Tornto and tampa were just as hopless as the O's over the last decade. No other division had the 2 best teams in the sport, that really did have better rosters than the all star game lineups. Unless the O's were going to spend 160 to 180 mil a year, they were not going to contend period. Firing managers, "meddling" and whatever else really had little to no impact that the fact that Bostan and NY would have better teams, and at the end of 162, better records.

If it was my money, I would be "meddling" as well. If no insurance company is going to gaurantee those huge gauranteed contracts, why should I, he or any one not likley to be in contention?

On the plus side for Angelos, he got his own network, worked out some deals to keep the O's at least in position finacially to rebuild, and eventually did hire a respectable GM and just gave him a budget.

11 years is not that long anyway. Boston was never good when we used to be and some sort of 86 year curse or something. The Cubs may always contend but have gone over 100 years without winning it all and along with the White Sox have enough bad years out of the last 200 combined seasons to make the O's decalde long skid mark look like a drop in the bucket.

[psuasskicker]

Angelos is not that bad an owner because he had no chance at finishing better than 3rd anyway so why waste the money on juiced up players when you never know how long they will play well.

Tampa Bay FTW!!!

This is moronic. I can't believe your argument is "He's not bad cause we had no shot so why should he even try?"

- C -

[purplepoe]

The list of things Angelos has done to run this franchise into the ground is too long to list.

Just for starters, take a look at the Spring Training Facility debacle that is STILL going on.

This article says it all.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/bal-sp.osspringsites03apr03,0,4767134.story

Flat out embarrassing.


PP

[psuasskicker]

Yeah, you know what I don't get? I don't get why we know we've got Angelos as an owner, and yet we boo guys like Teixeira for leaving this club as soon as the opportunity comes...

Teixeira's working for a third class organization. Then he's a free agent, and gets a huge dollar offer from a first class organization. He'd be an IDIOT not to take that!

The Mussina thing was the last straw for me. I was a HUGE O's fan. My dad's family owned five seats less than a dozen rows right behind home plate (now only four...had to cut back cause of reduced demand in the conglomerate, and may cut back to three or two soon), every game of the year. I used to go to no less than five games a season with him. I've been to 2,130 and 2,131...have a fantastic picture/poster I took from those seats of Ripken in the on-deck circle directly underneath the 2,131 sign on the warehouse. I consider that game to be the greatest sporting event/moment of my life...a 22 minute standing O for Cal...just an amazing experience!

Then Moose entered the last year of his deal. They had a contract worked out and ready to go. And Angelos pulls it last minute; says "He'll take a home-town discount."...even though he was basically giving them one already. I said right there that if Mussina wasn't an Oriole that following season, I would never spend another dollar to support the Orioles organization - including attending a game, since that ticket would have been bought in my name - for as long as Angelos was the owner.

Since Mussina left, I've been true to my word. It's sad. And in the grand scheme of things, I make very little actual difference. But I'm standing by my convictions on this. The man is disgusting. If I were walking down the street and saw him, I would spit in his face. I cannot bring myself to financially support him.

- C -

[Losac]

Yeah, you know what I don't get? I don't get why we know we've got Angelos as an owner, and yet we boo guys like Teixeira for leaving this club as soon as the opportunity comes...

Teixeira's working for a third class organization. Then he's a free agent, and gets a huge dollar offer from a first class organization. He'd be an IDIOT not to take that!

The Mussina thing was the last straw for me. I was a HUGE O's fan. My dad's family owned five seats less than a dozen rows right behind home plate (now only four...had to cut back cause of reduced demand in the conglomerate, and may cut back to three or two soon), every game of the year. I used to go to no less than five games a season with him. I've been to 2,130 and 2,131...have a fantastic picture/poster I took from those seats of Ripken in the on-deck circle directly underneath the 2,131 sign on the warehouse. I consider that game to be the greatest sporting event/moment of my life...a 22 minute standing O for Cal...just an amazing experience!

Then Moose entered the last year of his deal. They had a contract worked out and ready to go. And Angelos pulls it last minute; says "He'll take a home-town discount."...even though he was basically giving them one already. I said right there that if Mussina wasn't an Oriole that following season, I would never spend another dollar to support the Orioles organization - including attending a game, since that ticket would have been bought in my name - for as long as Angelos was the owner.

Since Mussina left, I've been true to my word. It's sad. And in the grand scheme of things, I make very little actual difference. But I'm standing by my convictions on this. The man is disgusting. If I were walking down the street and saw him, I would spit in his face. I cannot bring myself to financially support him.

- C -

Yankees are a first class organization? PLEASE! Charging fans $2000 a seat in this economy at their new wind-tunnel failure of a stadium? And an owner who cries and bitches to the press about it being "unacceptable" every year they don't win the World Series.

Tex was booed because he's a hypocritical little bitch. He always talked about how he grew up an Oriole fan and idolized Cal Ripken and Eddie Murray. The suddenly he signs with the Yankee$ and talks how he grew up rooting for them and Don Mattingly (unless they were playing the Orioles). What a bunch of shit. No one liked or likes both teams. He's trying to appease both fan bases when he should just admit he's only out for the most money. Tex is a piece of shit and deserves to be on that team. Hopefully they'll keep getting ever so close but no more rings just like happened to Mussina.

Go ahead and boycott the team. Maybe the Orioles will leave town due to lack of fan support just like the Colts did and you can have your wish.

[HoustonRaven]

+1 PSU

According to Losac's argument, you have to maintain loyalty to a team if the owner of said team has created a shell of that former teams self. Running into the ground be damned and we're the fools for speaking with our wallets.

Nonsense.

The black and orange I see are not the O's I grew up with and loved. It makes ZERO sense to keep supporting a team (with emotion and money) if that owner doesnt give two shits about you are me as fans.

I WISH we had an owner who does not settle for anything less than a world championship. Wait, we do ... his name is Steve Bisciotti.

[Jeremiah W]

+1 PSU

According to Losac's argument, you have to maintain loyalty to a team if the owner of said team has created a shell of that former teams self. Running into the ground be damned and we're the fools for speaking with our wallets.

Nonsense.

The black and orange I see are not the O's I grew up with and loved. It makes ZERO sense to keep supporting a team (with emotion and money) if that owner doesnt give two shits about you are me as fans.

I WISH we had an owner who does not settle for anything less than a world championship. Wait, we do ... his name is Steve Bisciotti.

If that is your take it is fair, but the rules of baseball from a finacial perspective made it almost impossible to compete with NY and Boston during the steriod era.
The Ravens never had to deal with NY and Boston type teams. The Steelers are good every year, but only because they are smart, not because they spend 3 times as much money.

[psuasskicker]

Yankees are a first class organization? PLEASE! Charging fans $2000 a seat in this economy at their new wind-tunnel failure of a stadium? And an owner who cries and bitches to the press about it being "unacceptable" every year they don't win the World Series.

heh...

Regardless of how they gouge their fans - and I certainly don't argue they do - if you look from a player's perspective, they're about as high class as it gets. Willing to spend as much money as it takes to always be in the mix. Providing their players with top-of-the-line facilities. Bending over backwards to please their employees. That's top notch, and you're fooling yourself if you think it's not extremely attractive to every player in the game.


Tex was booed because he's a hypocritical little bitch. He always talked about how he grew up an Oriole fan and idolized Cal Ripken and Eddie Murray. The suddenly he signs with the Yankee$ and talks how he grew up rooting for them and Don Mattingly (unless they were playing the Orioles). What a bunch of shit. No one liked or likes both teams. He's trying to appease both fan bases when he should just admit he's only out for the most money. Tex is a piece of shit and deserves to be on that team. Hopefully they'll keep getting ever so close but no more rings just like happened to Mussina.

Go ahead and boycott the team. Maybe the Orioles will leave town due to lack of fan support just like the Colts did and you can have your wish.

Wow. Can you even see the ground from that high up on your horse?

I don't want the team to leave, duh. I want Angelos out. You really think I should piss money down the toilet to support an owner that's done everything in his power to ruin the organization? Are you in the habit of spending money with businesses to provide you a shitty product and laugh and spit in your face every time they hand you a check?

F*ck that. I'm not in the business of paying for dog-shit. I'm not finanically supporting garbage...not now, not ever. If the team winds up leaving, I'll sleep comfortably at night with my decisions, cause it's not my fault they'd have left. It's his.

If you don't get that, there's not much I can really do to help you...

- C -

[HoustonRaven]

If that is your take it is fair, but the rules of baseball from a finacial perspective made it almost impossible to compete with NY and Boston during the steriod era.
The Ravens never had to deal with NY and Boston type teams. The Steelers are good every year, but only because they are smart, not because they spend 3 times as much money.

When you're not overly fawning about our local sports teams, you dont even read the things that are written.

When did I ever say anything about the financial structure of baseball and how it applies to the O's?

I am speaking to the direct and manipulative practices Angelos employs in the day to day running of the franchise.

Just because you didnt see the bus doesnt mean it hasnt hit you. You keep right on with your head in the sand as usual.

[psuasskicker]

If that is your take it is fair, but the rules of baseball from a finacial perspective made it almost impossible to compete with NY and Boston during the steriod era.
The Ravens never had to deal with NY and Boston type teams. The Steelers are good every year, but only because they are smart, not because they spend 3 times as much money.

Do you understand that the Yanks haven't won the Series since '00? Or are you just living in the past?

In the 8 years since, there have been 16 teams that have played in the World Series (two per year, LDO). The Yanks represent TWO of those. There have been 12 different franchises that have played in the World Series the past eight years. (The Sox are TWO winners in that 8 years. SIX other teams "competed" with them pretty effectively.)

In the past 20 years, they've only won it four times, and been in it six.

The argument that no one else can compete with them is the shittiest argument a person could humanly possibly mount. 12 other friggin' teams have competed with them the last eight friggin' years. Get off that weak-ass shit...

- C -

[Jeremiah W]

When you're not overly fawning about our local sports teams, you dont even read the things that are written.

When did I ever say anything about the financial structure of baseball and how it applies to the O's?

I am speaking to the direct and manipulative practices Angelos employs in the day to day running of the franchise.

Just because you didnt see the bus doesnt mean it hasnt hit you. You keep right on with your head in the sand as usual.

You can blame Angelos, I blame Bud Selig and Don Fehr or whatever the union boss' is for letting baseball become like pro wrestling. The O's may have made plenty of mistakes, but they would have had to have everything work out perfectly to even have a chance when 2 teams in your divison can and will spend at least twice as much as you can on everything from better players to better announcers to better buildings.

You have to have yuor head in the sand to think what has become of the O's is all or even mostly thier own fault. Where were they going to get the talent to contend with 2 better lineups than what was on the all star teams and a bullpen making more than the entire roster?

Angelos deciding not to write blank checks for players not willing to submit to any steriod testing was a good thing, even if it cost us any chance at contending in the short term, now that there is testing we at least have a chance, or at least as good a chance as we used to when they still had all the top free agents but we still won every once in a while and could keep most of our own good players.

I do not know or care about all of his meddling or bad choices, I just think the O's have a lot more going for them than most teams not in NY or Boston, in another division would be respectable, but are still not nearly one of the worst franchises in the sport, or even in the bottom half.

[HoustonRaven]

PSU schooled you so no need to for me to rebut absurdity other then what he has already said.

Your argument can apply to 30 other teams in the league, making it utterly meaningless.

[psuasskicker]

Angelos deciding not to write blank checks for players not willing to submit to any steriod testing was a good thing, even if it cost us any chance at contending in the short term

Bullshit.

We offered Teixeira $150MM.

We had Miggie ON OUR FRIGGIN' TEAM!!! Not to mention Palmeiro. And a few other Mitchell Report and other highly suspected if not verified users (Sosa comes to mind).

ARod came out and said after signing with TX that Angelos had attempted to open secret negotations with him to bring him here.

Our not spending money was never a choice Angelos conciously made. He tried. People just didn't want to come.

I don't blame them...

- C -

[purplepoe]

If that is your take it is fair, but the rules of baseball from a finacial perspective made it almost impossible to compete with NY and Boston during the steriod era.
The Ravens never had to deal with NY and Boston type teams. The Steelers are good every year, but only because they are smart, not because they spend 3 times as much money.

Why do the Twins and the A's make the playoffs on a fairly consistent basis?

Because they are well run teams.

The damage Angelos has done in making this team a loser is far greater than the fact that they are in the AL East.

The minor league system was virutally ignored for years. The team didn't invest in scouting in the far east until a few years ago. Meanwhile, other teams had been out there for 20 years. The spring training disaster is a flat out embarrassment and absolutely hurts the team. The list goes on. The guy fired Davey Johnson after the won the manager of the year award. He ran a guy like Gillick out of town and brought in Syd Thrift. But he's not a bad owner? You're right. He's a horrendous owner. I mean, people who work for the organization are well aware of it.


The idea that the Orioles are where they are because of baseball's structure is such a cop out it's unbelievable. Are they in a tough division? No doubt. Have then been a horribly run franchise? No doubt.

And for the record, in the last 10 years, there have been 7 different Super Bowl winning teams and 8 different World Series winning teams.

PP

[Jeremiah W]

Why do the Twins and the A's make the playoffs on a fairly consistent basis?

Because they are well run teams.

The damage Angelos has done in making this team a loser is far greater than the fact that they are in the AL East.

The minor league system was virutally ignored for years. The team didn't invest in scouting in the far east until a few years ago. Meanwhile, other teams had been out there for 20 years. The spring training disaster is a flat out embarrassment and absolutely hurts the team. The list goes on. The guy fired Davey Johnson after the won the manager of the year award. He ran a guy like Gillick out of town and brought in Syd Thrift. But he's not a bad owner? You're right. He's a horrendous owner. I mean, people who work for the organization are well aware of it.


The idea that the Orioles are where they are because of baseball's structure is such a cop out it's unbelievable. Are they in a tough division? No doubt. Have then been a horribly run franchise? No doubt.

And for the record, in the last 10 years, there have been 7 different Super Bowl winning teams and 8 different World Series winning teams.

PP

All that may or may not be true, but I have a hard time thinking the A's and twins would have done much if any better than the O' if they were stuck in our division.

In baseball if you build a great team and have a lot of money you can stay on top for a long time like NY and Atl did over the last 15 years, and if you happen to be another team in that division it is going to be an uphill climb. There is/was nothing to bring the Yanks down other than steroid testing. every off season they can just go out and buy the best players, while the O's have to try to develop them. Meanwhile they are also developing minor league talent in much better complexes along with the huge income and spending gap. The Yanks missed on at least as many players as the O's did, but they just kept reloading while we had to eat bad contracts and watch guys like Sosa and Raffy on thier last legs while they were getting the best years out of A roid, Juicy GIambi and all those younger fresher, juiced up balco clowns.

[Losac]

heh...

Regardless of how they gouge their fans - and I certainly don't argue they do - if you look from a player's perspective, they're about as high class as it gets. Willing to spend as much money as it takes to always be in the mix. Providing their players with top-of-the-line facilities. Bending over backwards to please their employees. That's top notch, and you're fooling yourself if you think it's not extremely attractive to every player in the game.

And I don't think buying all the free agents you can is a smart way to run a team. Building through the farm system and bringing in a quality free agent here and there is what does it. As you mentioned, what have the Yankees won lately? They are always competitive, but haven't been to the series since 2003 and haven't won it since 2000. What's attractive to the players is the hugely inflated contracts they give out, and the option to be the leading story on Sports Center every night since ESPN covers them like gospel.






Wow. Can you even see the ground from that high up on your horse?

I don't want the team to leave, duh. I want Angelos out. You really think I should piss money down the toilet to support an owner that's done everything in his power to ruin the organization? Are you in the habit of spending money with businesses to provide you a shitty product and laugh and spit in your face every time they hand you a check?

F*ck that. I'm not in the business of paying for dog-shit. I'm not finanically supporting garbage...not now, not ever. If the team winds up leaving, I'll sleep comfortably at night with my decisions, cause it's not my fault they'd have left. It's his.

If you don't get that, there's not much I can really do to help you...


And no one wanted the Colts to leave either - they just wanted Irsay out. Look, I'm no Angelos supporter or apologist, but sitting home saying how you won't support the team does nothing to make him sell. They have a bunch of exciting players to watch for the first time in a long time, and a new crop in the minors who could be special. So, for an $8 ticket I get to go to one of the best parks in baseball, cheer on my hometown team win or lose, and see some talented young players.

Man this town has some fairweather fans. I'm sure if the Orioles started winning again even with Angelos as the owner, you still wouldn't give the team any money just because of your personal hatred of him?

[psuasskicker]

And I don't think buying all the free agents you can is a smart way to run a team. Building through the farm system and bringing in a quality free agent here and there is what does it. As you mentioned, what have the Yankees won lately? They are always competitive, but haven't been to the series since 2003 and haven't won it since 2000. What's attractive to the players is the hugely inflated contracts they give out, and the option to be the leading story on Sports Center every night since ESPN covers them like gospel.

No argument from me. Still doesn't make the Yanks less than a first class organization to the players it brings in...


And no one wanted the Colts to leave either - they just wanted Irsay out. Look, I'm no Angelos supporter or apologist, but sitting home saying how you won't support the team does nothing to make him sell. They have a bunch of exciting players to watch for the first time in a long time, and a new crop in the minors who could be special. So, for an $8 ticket I get to go to one of the best parks in baseball, cheer on my hometown team win or lose, and see some talented young players.

Man this town has some fairweather fans. I'm sure if the Orioles started winning again even with Angelos as the owner, you still wouldn't give the team any money just because of your personal hatred of him?

The product on the field is getting better, but most is in the minor leagues right now. Like I said, I'm not a guy that simply flushes money down the toilet to see a shitty product and get shitty service. Why would I spend money on the O's to support an owner that's done everything wrong when I can buy a Ravens ticket and support one that's done things right?

- C -

[Losac]

The product on the field is getting better, but most is in the minor leagues right now. Like I said, I'm not a guy that simply flushes money down the toilet to see a shitty product and get shitty service. Why would I spend money on the O's to support an owner that's done everything wrong when I can buy a Ravens ticket and support one that's done things right?

Just don't see why it has to be one or the other, and why attending a baseball game has to be a political or financial statement. I go because it's always a great time, tickets are dirt cheap, they have some really nice giveaways now, and the young players coming up are fun to watch. Angelos is truly a horrible owner, but I'd support the team if he's running things or not. It's not just all about supporting or protesting the owner.

[psuasskicker]

Because:

a) I'm not made of money.

b) I don't live in the area, so the times I can come up to see a game are rare, and I'm not going to waste them.

c) I'm still not going to spend money on a guy that runs a business badly.

Example: I own a small business. In this business, I have needs to print marketing materials for distribution. I have a friend that runs a printing business. I had him do my printing for me one time. He did a shitty job. The quality came out like crap, and his prices weren't overly competitive.

Should I keep using him?

If I don't, and he goes out of business, should I blame myself for not financially supporting him?

- C -

[purplepoe]

I think most are on the same page with regards to the O's.

I go to a ton of games but haven't paid for a ticket in 10 years. The franchise has basically been destroyed and now has some flicker of hope with the pitching down on the farm.

I will say that just winning some games won't bring a huge crowd back to Camden Yards. I know many people in my demographic who feel extremely alienated by what Angelos has done. And it's not just personnel moves or other things I've mentioned. It's actual experiences at the games with regards to ushers and many other things.

The organization has finally started to market better and as Losac said, the giveaways have gotten alot better.

There is a LONG, LONG way to go though.

The way they are playing now is flat out embarrassing. I can take losing because of lesser talent. We all know what the deal is. But what they are doing now (errors, baserunning blunders, and generally unsound baseball) isn't gonna cut it. IMO this is the year McPhail moves a bunch of the vets (if he can) and we really see a different team come August.

And why the hell not? We're gonna finish in 5th with guys like Sherrill/Baez/Huff/Walker/Mora anyway. I realize some of those guys have zero value and others have no trade clauses (Mora) but they are all candidates to be moved IMO.

In August I'd like to see a lineup that includes Wieters and Reimold playing everyday and a staff that includes at least Patton and maybe Tillman.

PP

[Losac]

Because:

a) I'm not made of money.

b) I don't live in the area, so the times I can come up to see a game are rare, and I'm not going to waste them.

c) I'm still not going to spend money on a guy that runs a business badly.

Example: I own a small business. In this business, I have needs to print marketing materials for distribution. I have a friend that runs a printing business. I had him do my printing for me one time. He did a shitty job. The quality came out like crap, and his prices weren't overly competitive.

Should I keep using him?

If I don't, and he goes out of business, should I blame myself for not financially supporting him?

- C -

a.) So you can afford $50-$100 a ticket for a Ravens game, but not $6-$15 for a O's ticket?

b.) Well I do live in the area.

c.) Then you can stay home when they finally do become competitive. As purplepoe said, the vets who can be traded will be, and the young guys are going to get their shot. Might not be too far off.

As for your example, talk about apples and oranges. Using a printer or patronizing a business that sells a usable product is not the same as going for a night out at a baseball game. I have a blast at the Yard no matter who's sitting in the owner's box.

[Losac]

The way they are playing now is flat out embarrassing. I can take losing because of lesser talent. We all know what the deal is. But what they are doing now (errors, baserunning blunders, and generally unsound baseball) isn't gonna cut it. IMO this is the year McPhail moves a bunch of the vets (if he can) and we really see a different team come August.


:word

I think Trembley is outsmarting himself by trying to be too aggressive on the basepaths. How many times do we have to see Melvin Mora freaking STOP in the middle of a stolen base attempt? At least run it out and slide so you have a shot. If you stop you're a certain out! The bonehead plays are what is so frustrating. It's obvious the Orioles cannot properly execute a hit-and-run, yet Trembley keeps calling for them and getting strike out/throw out double plays.

[psuasskicker]

c.) Then you can stay home when they finally do become competitive. As purplepoe said, the vets who can be traded will be, and the young guys are going to get their shot. Might not be too far off.

As long as Angelos owns the team, I'll be at home. He's not getting one more cent from me.

Once he's done, I'll start coming again, regardless of whether the team is good or bad.


As for your example, talk about apples and oranges. Using a printer or patronizing a business that sells a usable product is not the same as going for a night out at a baseball game. I have a blast at the Yard no matter who's sitting in the owner's box.

You're missing the point. If I went to the Yard, I'd be freaking pissed off knowing I was paying a guy who has ruined this team. I'd be pissed off watching a shitty product. I wouldn't enjoy myself, knowing what I know about the O's.

I'm sure there are some people that think my printer friend's quality is fine. I have higher standards.

The question still remains... Would YOU pay for a product YOU find sub-standard?

Assuming not, why should you think I should?

- C -

[Mista T]

The question still remains... Would YOU pay for a product YOU find sub-standard?

Assuming not, why should you think I should?

- C -

Because they are the home team, perhaps?

[HoustonRaven]

Because they are the home team, perhaps?

So Ted, suppose Under Armour made some of the worst sporting gear in the world, would you buy faulty and shoddy Under Armour gear simply because it's from Baltimore?

Throwing your money down a hole is still throwing your money down a hole, no matter the city affiliation.

[Mista T]

So Ted, suppose Under Armour made some of the worst sporting gear in the world, would you buy faulty and shoddy Under Armour gear simply because it's from Baltimore?

Apples & oranges. If Under Armour packed up in Mayflower vans for Indianapolis due to lack of local support, I wouldn't get upset, as I did for the Colts. Sports teams are a different beast. Yes, they are businesses, but they also drive our emotions. Would you be posting on a message board about the ownership of Under Armour?

Regardless of Angelos' poor decision-making, Baltimore area fans should support the Orioles.

btw: an analogy which is more relevant to me is buying cars. I have always bought "local", i.e. American new cars, and never bought a Jap or German vehicle, despite their high quality ratings. Reasons: Pearl Harbor, treatment of American POWs, German genocide. Japs and Germans may be better businessmen, may make better autos, but it's always been Buy America for me (up until last year, but we'll save that for another forum when you bait me into doing that again).

[camdenyard]

I have always bought "local", i.e. American new cars, and never bought a Jap or German vehicle, despite their high quality ratings. Reasons: Pearl Harbor, treatment of American POWs, German genocide.

You can't be serious. It's not 1945 anymore!

Do you still hold a grudge against the British over 1812?

[FellsPointRaven]

You can't be serious. It's not 1945 anymore!

Do you still hold a grudge against the British over 1812?

When you guys aren't around, T berates me with taunts such as 'how's the warm beer, you limey wanker' and 'Yo Fell's Point, how 'bout dat Battle of Fort McHenry - ya Redcoat Bitch!'.

I've been too intimidated up til now to tell anyone else, but I feel it's time to expose these uncalled for bullying tactics. :thumbdown: :uk:

[Mista T]

You can't be serious. It's not 1945 anymore!

Do you still hold a grudge against the British over 1812?

Just a bit ... I have a Limey son-in-law and tailgating friends who have reduced my Anglophobia. I will admit to having purchased a pair of British sports cars in my youth. Wish I had kept them: they'd be worth over $50,000 each today.

btw: Even though the Brits invaded in 1814, they wisely bypassed Annapolis harbor in favor of going after the politicians in Washington and the pirates in Baltimore. Unlike the Japs & Germans, the Brits treated POWs i/a/w gentlemanly rules -- Francis Scott Key was able to board a Brit warship to free his friend. The worst British invasion came a century and half later, by sending us their undesirables such as Petula Clark, David Bowie, Tom Jones, Lulu, Elvis Costello, Mungo Jerry, Pink Floyd, and the Bay City Rollers.



When you guys aren't around, T berates me with taunts such as 'how's the warm beer, you limey wanker' and 'Yo Fell's Point, how 'bout dat Battle of Fort McHenry - ya Redcoat Bitch!'.

I've been too intimidated up til now to tell anyone else, but I feel it's time to expose these uncalled for bullying tactics. :thumbdown: :uk:

:ref:

[Mista T]

Agree that baseball is foundering, while NFL is at least holding its own during the recession. And placing a team in the Nation's Crime Capital, with inadequate parking and high prices, looks to have been a mistake (as Angelos had predicted).

I strongly disagree about the cost of attending baseball games - it still is a bargain to attend Orioles games and the stadium is easily accessible. We can attend Orioles games for not much more than going to the movies. We certainly get our money's worth.

While I'm not bitching about the cost of attending Ravens games, I consider the Orioles games to be a much better deal. I believe that the Ravens, and the NFL in general, will be running off support if they don't curtail the price gouging. For example, my season ticket prices have gone up 900% over my Colts season in the mid-late '70s, while Orioles tickets have about doubled.

[HoustonRaven]

Agree that baseball is foundering, while NFL is at least holding its own during the recession. And placing a team in the Nation's Crime Capital, with inadequate parking and high prices, looks to have been a mistake (as Angelos had predicted).

Crime in Baltimore was much worse 12 years ago and attendance did just fine. Why? Because they were winning. Now the O's are perennial losers. You put a good product on the field (coughRavenscough) and people will shun "inadequate parking and high prices" and the supposed crime around the stadiums. Plus, Camden Yards is not in a bad neighborhood. It's not like it sits on the corner of Riggs and Calhoun. By your logic, Harbor Place should have never caught on because the area it sits on was once a bad area. Ditto for Fells Point. You give the consumer something they demand and they will spend their money. Right now, they are not demanding a year after year loser in the O's.


I strongly disagree about the cost of attending baseball games - it still is a bargain to attend Orioles games and the stadium is easily accessible. We can attend Orioles games for not much more than going to the movies. We certainly get our money's worth.

A 12 year loser should be paying me to go.


While I'm not bitching about the cost of attending Ravens games, I consider the Orioles games to be a much better deal. I believe that the Ravens, and the NFL in general, will be running off support if they don't curtail the price gouging. For example, my season ticket prices have gone up 900% over my Colts season in the mid-late '70s, while Orioles tickets have about doubled.

Demand is high as ever and as long as the Ravens keep their winning ways, it will stay that way. The market, not the individual sports, determine the value of the game experience. You may disagree in their pricing scheme, but it's not gouging when there is a demand and people freely willing to pay the price.

[psuasskicker]

I believe that the Ravens, and the NFL in general, will be running off support if they don't curtail the price gouging. For example, my season ticket prices have gone up 900% over my Colts season in the mid-late '70s, while Orioles tickets have about doubled.

Doubtful. They're pricing commensurate with demand increase. Baseball hasn't grown in popularity (in fact, it may have shrunk) nearly like football has. You're describing a 14% annual increase in prices. That's just not that bad for a game that's total attendance has about doubled and Superbowl viewing audience has gone up 7x in that time.

And even with prices where they are, they're still selling. Avg '08 attendance was over 98% of capacity across the league, and the lowest avg was Miami at 87%.

It's not overly likely to change any time soon...

- C -

[Losac]

You can get Os tix on Stub Hub from $6 - $98. A decent seat up front near the infield will be at least $25 ore more.
Cheapest are up in nose bleed, which is great for football but not baseball.

But $25-$98 for a decent seat to see baseball? And like posted above - for that product?

Plus, lot parking has increased. Not sure about Os, so Im guessing the handi cap lot is same as Ravens which was $40 last time I parked there.

So thats $20 for a decent seat, $40 to park, $4 for the tunnel and at least $7 for gas and that is before buying any food.

I always got Boogs pit beef for $10 which was good but not sure what it is now but I bet a hot dog is at least $5. If you take someone and the last time I went I took my sister and 2 of her kids.

You can see how it adds up and Im sorry, the Os just aint worth it.

Hell, I get laughed at still wearing their hat around town.

You can get an upper reserve ticket for $8 on Tuesday bargain night. Hell then you can move down to the lower box seats if it's not a prime game. The downtown parking garages near the arena run about $10 on game nights. And you can get 2 hot dogs, a bag of chips and a soda from the vendors outside for $5 and bring it into the stadium.

I'll say it again. This town has the most fickle, front-running fans I've ever seen. Most of you would never support the Ravens if they had a string of losing seasons, and you know it.

[Mista T]

I'll say it again. This town has the most fickle, front-running fans I've ever seen. Most of you would never support the Ravens if they had a string of losing seasons, and you know it.

:iagree:

The excuses for not supporting the Orioles are often weak. Sometimes I think that our fairweather fans caused us to lose the Colts.

The Ravens may be a different story because of the PSLs - fans have to renew season tickets or forfeit the PSLs.

[Jeremiah W]

:iagree:

The excuses for not supporting the Orioles are often weak. Sometimes I think that our fairweather fans caused us to lose the Colts.

The Ravens may be a different story because of the PSLs - fans have to renew season tickets or forfeit the PSLs.

It is up to the sport to attract the fan, not the fan to support the sport if they are not interested. I did not so much sour on the O's as much as baseball in general, thanks mostly to the Skanks buying our best pitcher, the steriod era where I did not know what I was watching, and increased interest in hoops, lax and football.

[Mista T]

I did not so much sour on the O's as much as baseball in general, thanks mostly to the Skanks buying our best pitcher, the steriod era where I did not know what I was watching, and increased interest in hoops, lax and football.

I agree with all those statements except "hoops". But I still attend Orioles (and Baysox) games, albeit fewer than before the Ravens retuned football to Baltimore.

[psuasskicker]

:iagree:

The excuses for not supporting the Orioles are often weak. Sometimes I think that our fairweather fans caused us to lose the Colts.

The Ravens may be a different story because of the PSLs - fans have to renew season tickets or forfeit the PSLs.

That's crap. I went to games that season we started with 21 losses.

I didn't stop supporting this team cause they're losing. I stopped supporting this team cause their owner is a megalomaniacal moron who has actively driven this team into the ground, and I don't pay shitty owners for providing me shitty, half assed products. That goes for anything I buy, not just my sports.

- C -

[Losac]

LOSAC - Are you sure you can take food into the stadium? `Hot dogs?

I went to every Ravens home game and many road trips from 96 til 06 and the Ravens were bad from 96-99. I missed the PO game vs the COlts because I had 5 surgeries on my leg. Until then Ive been in nearly every stadium from NE to OAK including both of Pitt's stadiums - old and new several times, many with Mista T and I tailgated with him at most of those home games down on H lot - also with the Nests and Poes Crows. Still do.

I usually spend over $6,000 pr yr going to football games and that includes some Terps games as well plus many of their lacross games since I played lacross in hi school.

The last Os game I went to, I had the entire upper deck to myself. Yea, you can move down sometimes if the let you. I was in that stadium paying for the best seats when they were good and bad. Hell, back before you came along I was one of the few thousand sitting in Memorial Stadium for the POs with Jim Palmer starting and I attended all the World Series games played here. I grew up behind Memorial Stadium and as kids we were there every day in the summmer and hung out at the exits. We knew all the Os plus Mickey Mantle, Whitey Ford and Yogi, but Angelos killed it for me and I lost interest in the boring game.

And speaking of exits, we hung out there for the old Colts too and also in front of Sweeneys Bar where they drank. We ran errands and got papers and cigs for some of them like Alex Hawkins. My history with both the Os and Colts is rich and more than most of the average fan because I lived so close to them. I knew where Arty and Shula lived behind the stadium when they were teammates in the 50s.

I spend my time reading and talking about the Ravens.

Baseball is dead in this town and Angelos killed it.

Yes, you can bring food into the stadium. You've always been able to. I remember when I used to go with my parents when I was a kid, my mom would make a bunch of hot dogs at home, wrap them up and bring them. Popcorn too. You can also bring bottled water and soda in. Just no alcohol and I think no canned soda.

Everything sold by the street vendors outside the stadium can be brought in.

[Mista T]

I stopped supporting this team cause their owner is a megalomaniacal moron who has actively driven this team into the ground, and I don't pay shitty owners for providing me shitty, half assed products.

And that's the same type of thinking of 10,000 - 15,000 Colts fans who jumped ship when the team started losing in 1972; then, after blaming Irsay for his drunkenness and shopping the team, another 10-15,000 quit attending the games, until Colt games became a national embarassment and we lost our team.

If the team has "Baltimore" or "Maryland" in its name, I support it and encourage other area fans to do the same, regardless of ownership.

And, sorry Trap, your numbers are way off. Orioles games are a relative bargain.

[Mista T]

Trap: I don't know anything about Stub Hub -- don't they mark up tickets like 50% to 100%? Maybe that's why you think O's games are expensive..... Why don't you just buy tickets directly from the team? This isn't 1996 - there are plenty of tickets available.

I get into Orioles games upper reserved for about $8 to $15. I paid $5 for upper reserved at Memorial Stadium in the 70s and 80s. My Ravens upper sideline seats are $80, compared to my Colts upper sideline seats at $10.

Someone is taking you for a ride if you are paying $40 for parking for Orioles games. I haven't been around most of this Spring to attend a game, but last year the parking was around $10. Beers and soda are cheaper than Ravens games, and OPCY food is a lot better. OPCY has upper deck escalators, too.

The Ravens are my passion, but the Orioles offer a better value.


Now your definition of cheap is different from the average fan since everyone knows you have Angelos-type money-lol.


:229031_confused2:


As for Irsay, why didnt you move out with him since you loved him so much?


:187734: :grbac:

[HoustonRaven]

I didn't stop supporting this team cause they're losing. I stopped supporting this team cause their owner is a megalomaniacal moron who has actively driven this team into the ground, and I don't pay shitty owners for providing me shitty, half assed products. That goes for anything I buy, not just my sports

:word

And bullocks to the "fair weather fan" comment.

A fair weather fan is someone who sees a loser because of bad players, horrid coaching, etc and decides to jump ship.

Speaking with your feet and dollars against an idiot who knows dick about baseball with no sign or ability for change is NOT the same.

If it came down to it, LET THEM LEAVE! All things considered, we did ok saying "see ya" to the Colts. Yes, it took some time but in the end it was a net gain for fans of Baltimore.

[psuasskicker]

And that's the same type of thinking of 10,000 - 15,000 Colts fans who jumped ship when the team started losing in 1972; then, after blaming Irsay for his drunkenness and shopping the team, another 10-15,000 quit attending the games, until Colt games became a national embarassment and we lost our team.

If the team has "Baltimore" or "Maryland" in its name, I support it and encourage other area fans to do the same, regardless of ownership.

You're welcome to your own opinions of course, but don't you even think of blaming fans with my attitude for the move of the Colts, nor for the Orioles if they wind up moving. Like I said in an earlier post...if the O's move, I will still sleep soundly knowing it's not my fault. It's Angelos'.

- C -

[Mista T]

don't you even think of blaming fans with my attitude for the move of the Colts, nor for the Orioles if they wind up moving.

I can't see how one could not blame the fans who shunned the Colts for driving the team away. It started (before Irsay) with Rosenbloom playing exhibition games in Tampa and the all the fan grousing over switching to the AFC. Then came Joe Thomas unceremoniously cleaned house of the old warriors, in particular Johnny U. And Irsay's drunken tirades. The fan reaction to these events was to quit on the team.

I don't know how old you are to remember all this, but I witnessed the destruction of a once-proud franchise by its fans. We couldn't sell out most Colts games in the mid-70s when we had the most exciting offense in the NFL and a three-peat division titlist. Attendance during the losing seasons of '72-'74 and '78-'83 was embarrassing. The radio call-in shows of the 70s were nothing but a continual bitch & whine about Irsay and Thomas and excuses for quitting on season tickets.

Sorry if you don't want me calling "fans with [your] attitude for the move of the Colts", but it was Baltimore Colts fans' attitudes that took us from a 56 game sellout streak (when NFL sellouts were a rarity) down to the NFL's worst supported franchise. And I wouldn't be shocked to see the same thing happen to the Orioles someday.

[psuasskicker]

Okay. Sorry I don't pay for a piece of shit. Next time I take a dump, I'll pull it out of the can, stamp an Orioles logo on it, and see how much you're willing to pay me for it...

Irsay's to blame for the Colts jumping town. He put a shitty product on the field. Same with Angelos. Hopefully the same thing won't happen. But blaming the fans is a pathetic cop out. Sorry, it is.

- C -

[psuasskicker]

Im interested in hockey.

Now there is a man's game.

:word Hockey rules!

Baseball has gotten pretty boring in general, and I've given up on even trying to follow the sport. After Ripken, there was little if any reason for me to bother with it. The most recent strike struck me as pathetic and made me angry at the lack of respect both sides showed the fans. And the state of the game these days is horrendous. A few select teams buy up all the talent, and while there are teams competing, it's nowhere near as fun to watch as it was even ten years ago. Football and hockey are far more interesting to me.

FWIW, my O's self-inflicted ban isn't cause they suck. It's cause Angelos is a turd. If the O's start off next season 52-0 and my dad has a ticket for game 53, I'm still not going.

- C -

[Mista T]

Im interested in hockey.

Now there is a man's game.

:thumbdown:

Boring! I've been to two hockey games in my life: big, excited crowds for Caps playoffs in Landover and the Bruins-Canadiens in Boston Garden. The men taking me to the games enjoyed it, but I was pretty bored. I had a hard time staying awake. It's like soccer (which I played in h.s.) on ice skates.

[Losac]

If it came down to it, LET THEM LEAVE! All things considered, we did ok saying "see ya" to the Colts. Yes, it took some time but in the end it was a net gain for fans of Baltimore.

:grbac:

[HoustonRaven]

:grbac:

Wow. I see your point. Quite the clever retort, filled with unshakable facts and stunning analysis.

:261695:

[Losac]

Wow. I see your point. Quite the clever retort, filled with unshakable facts and stunning analysis.

:261695:

Sorry, it was just such an idiotic statement that I didn't think it deserved an intelligent reply.

[HoustonRaven]

Sorry, it was just such an idiotic statement that I didn't think it deserved an intelligent reply.

Are you 6 or something?

I can see how a factual principled stance might throw someone who acts in the manner in which you act. I guess it was too much for me assume you'd not single me out for something other people in the thread are also saying.

My bad.

[Mista T]

Houston ..... No one else on this thread chimed in to agree with your statements:



If it came down to it, LET THEM LEAVE!

Brilliant! Fuckin' brilliant! :261695: An empty Orioles Park at Camden Yards.


If it came down to it, LET THEM LEAVE! All things considered, we did ok saying "see ya" to the Colts. Yes, it took some time but in the end it was a net gain for fans of Baltimore.

That statement is idiotic. [Note, I'm not saying that you, sir, are an idiot]. The Colts departing left us in the NFL wilderness for 12 seasons. How did that make us better off? The Ravens won a SB and made the playoffs several times; so did the Colts. Had the Colts stayed, Irsay would have still died and we likely still would have gotten a new stadium. Where's the "net gain"?

[baltimore_hokie]

:iagree:

The excuses for not supporting the Orioles are often weak. Sometimes I think that our fairweather fans caused us to lose the Colts.

The Ravens may be a different story because of the PSLs - fans have to renew season tickets or forfeit the PSLs.

looking at these responses about loyalty to our hometown team, i would have thought i was on a redskins board. this is embarrassing, really no wonder the colts packed up and left town.

[psuasskicker]

:thumbdown:

Boring! I've been to two hockey games in my life: big, excited crowds for Caps playoffs in Landover and the Bruins-Canadiens in Boston Garden. The men taking me to the games enjoyed it, but I was pretty bored. I had a hard time staying awake. It's like soccer (which I played in h.s.) on ice skates.

You think baseball is exciting but hockey is boring?

I'm pretty sure there's something wrong with the wiring in your head... :crazy:


FWIW Houston, I agree with the others on your particular statement they called out. I don't want the Orioles to leave, and don't believe the Colts leaving was a net gain for the city.

- C -

[ravenmaniac]

We got some lumber the home builders left laying around and made hockey sticks and goals to put on the pond. I actually learned to ice skate by tying a woodden chair to my back so when I fell I landed on the chair so it wouldnt hurt-lol.
Hey, it worked.

When was that 1906? How was life like without cars?

[HoustonRaven]

Need to set the record straight ....

I never once said I WANTED the O's to go.

But PSU, you did say if the owner runs the team to the ground, packs up and takes them some place else, you'd take solace in the fact it was not of the fans doing.

That's where I am coming from as well.

This is not about loyalty. It has everything to do with giving my money and time to an owner who gives to shits about the state of the team or any outward desire to field a winning product.

It is not the fans fault the Colts split. That's a cop out.

It was an owner who too did not give two shits about the team. That malaise brought down the Colts and the fans simply followed Irsay's lead.

[ravenmaniac]

I don't think Angelos doesn't care. I just think he was meddling too much. I DO think that in the past 2 yrs under McPhail things are way better.

[Losac]

This is not about loyalty. It has everything to do with giving my money and time to an owner who gives to shits about the state of the team or any outward desire to field a winning product.

Have you even been paying attention to the team lately? Andy MacPhail has been pretty much allowed to run the team without interference from Angelos for the past 2 years and has a pretty good plan in place. Lots of good looking players coming up and a crop of pitching talent in the minors. There was even an article recently about how most of the players haven't even met Angelos, he's hardly ever around the warehouse anymore. If MacPhail's plan is successful and the O's get to the playoffs in a couple of years, nice to know you won't care just because you hate the owner. Good for you.



It is not the fans fault the Colts split. That's a cop out.

It was an owner who too did not give two shits about the team. That malaise brought down the Colts and the fans simply followed Irsay's lead.

It gave Irsay a perfect excuse to move the team. "Look, no one is coming to the games. That shitty stadium is mostly empty. I can get more support and a better stadium in Indy".

You are about as stubborn as an ox, so I'm sure I'm just wasting my time by responding to you, but I need something to kill time I guess.

[psuasskicker]

But PSU, you did say if the owner runs the team to the ground, packs up and takes them some place else, you'd take solace in the fact it was not of the fans doing.

Yeah, but that's pretty different from saying "Let them leave." I don't want them to leave...I'm just comfortable knowing I'm not the cause of it if they happen to leave. As I said, I also don't believe the Colts leaving town was a net gain for the city.


Have you even been paying attention to the team lately? Andy MacPhail has been pretty much allowed to run the team without interference from Angelos for the past 2 years and has a pretty good plan in place. Lots of good looking players coming up and a crop of pitching talent in the minors. There was even an article recently about how most of the players haven't even met Angelos, he's hardly ever around the warehouse anymore. If MacPhail's plan is successful and the O's get to the playoffs in a couple of years, nice to know you won't care just because you hate the owner. Good for you.

Hold on a sec. You mean to tell me that you have never once been burned by a company for anything, only to swear to never purchase one of their products again?

I'm sorry, I don't buy that for a second. Angelos has had a hand in far more than just the meddling with the team, and just because MacPhail is controlling the team's moves now doesn't mean that Angelos is out of the picture completely. I still have a lot of pent-up anger at him for running Jon Miller out of town simply cause Miller wouldn't get down on his hands and knees and kiss Angelos' ass.

I own a business. We help people (seniors, mostly) that need help doing the every-day things many of us take for granted. We pride ourselves in providing the best care in the city, and feedback we hear constantly confirms this. Just this past weekend, one of our clients' husband's died. Her daughter wanted to move her back to Florida, and she told her daughter no, she wanted to stay here, because she didn't want to leave her caregivers that we were providing.

If I ran this business like Angelos ran the Orioles, I have a hard time imagining I'd be in business very long. I don't treat my clients like crap and think that I'm the center of the universe. I don't treat my caregivers like crap and think they owe me for the ability to have a job. And if I did, I would expect my clients to vow never to spend money with me again.

That's how I choose to treat Angelos...I'm simply not going to support him financially, and hope he either dies soon, or sells the team to someone else that will both keep it in Baltimore and start running it the way a quality owner would run a business.

- C -

[Losac]

Hold on a sec. You mean to tell me that you have never once been burned by a company for anything, only to swear to never purchase one of their products again?

I'm sorry, I don't buy that for a second. Angelos has had a hand in far more than just the meddling with the team, and just because MacPhail is controlling the team's moves now doesn't mean that Angelos is out of the picture completely. I still have a lot of pent-up anger at him for running Jon Miller out of town simply cause Miller wouldn't get down on his hands and knees and kiss Angelos' ass.

I own a business. We help people (seniors, mostly) that need help doing the every-day things many of us take for granted. We pride ourselves in providing the best care in the city, and feedback we hear constantly confirms this. Just this past weekend, one of our clients' husband's died. Her daughter wanted to move her back to Florida, and she told her daughter no, she wanted to stay here, because she didn't want to leave her caregivers that we were providing.

If I ran this business like Angelos ran the Orioles, I have a hard time imagining I'd be in business very long. I don't treat my clients like crap and think that I'm the center of the universe. I don't treat my caregivers like crap and think they owe me for the ability to have a job. And if I did, I would expect my clients to vow never to spend money with me again.

That's how I choose to treat Angelos...I'm simply not going to support him financially, and hope he either dies soon, or sells the team to someone else that will both keep it in Baltimore and start running it the way a quality owner would run a business.

- C -

You keep bringing up the "supporting a business" example and the point remains that you're talking about apples and oranges. A sports team is not the same type of commodity as any other business that sells something or provides you a service. You do not feel the same type of emotion and spend the time following a business like Under Armour as you do on the Ravens or Orioles.

If a mechanic or something similar treats me bad, I can choose not to go back and simply go to the Yellow Pages for one of the thousands of other competitors. That's not the same as a local sports team.

How do you know Angelos is still meddling? For God sake's, what do you want the guy to do? He is letting his baseball people actually make the baseball decisions for once. Yes, running Jon Miller out of town was a horrible move, but damn dude - it was like 15 years ago.

[Mista T]

You think baseball is exciting but hockey is boring?

:229031_confused2: Ok, I give up: where/when did I state that baseball was "exciting"?

I believe that the two baseball teams whose games I attend - Orioles and Baysox - provide a good entertainment value. A lot less expensive than Ravens games, or college football games, or fishing. As cheap as movies, with better food & beer, and generally more interesting.

But baseball, while not boring like hockey and soccer, is not generally "exciting".


I'm pretty sure there's something wrong with the wiring in your head... :crazy:

Must be something wrong with the wiring in the heads of most Americans, as well:

Avg 2008 attendance per MLB game: 32,516

Avg 2008 attendance per NHL game: 17,265

Great :261695: TV sport too, eh? :canada:

[psuasskicker]

You keep bringing up the "supporting a business" example and the point remains that you're talking about apples and oranges. A sports team is not the same type of commodity as any other business that sells something or provides you a service. You do not feel the same type of emotion and spend the time following a business like Under Armour as you do on the Ravens or Orioles.

If a mechanic or something similar treats me bad, I can choose not to go back and simply go to the Yellow Pages for one of the thousands of other competitors. That's not the same as a local sports team.

How do you know Angelos is still meddling? For God sake's, what do you want the guy to do? He is letting his baseball people actually make the baseball decisions for once. Yes, running Jon Miller out of town was a horrible move, but damn dude - it was like 15 years ago.

Agree to disagree. Baseball is a business. Angelos gets money from you going to games. I choose not to support that. C'est la vie.

Point taken, T...I thought you were saying the baseball games were exciting.

I personally can't figure out why hockey isn't more highly regarded. Regular season is okay, but playoff hockey is incredible. I don't know why more people aren't into it.

- C -

[Mista T]

I personally can't figure out why hockey isn't more highly regarded. Regular season is okay, but playoff hockey is incredible. I don't know why more people aren't into it.

- C -

Read all my posts above: it's boring. It's essentially soccer on ice skates. Americans have never taken soccer seriously, either.

btw: I could be persuaded to take more interest in NHL if we had a team in Baltimore. But we don't, and likely never will. I don't do the Nation's Crime Capital, especially after dark

[Jeremiah W]

:229031_confused2:
Must be something wrong with the wiring in the heads of most Americans, as well:

Avg 2008 attendance per MLB game: 32,516

Avg 2008 attendance per NHL game: 17,265

Great :261695: TV sport too, eh? :canada:

I think baseball is in danger of going the way of boxing and horse racing. They no longer have many young people playing it or getting into it like when I was young, and I am no longer realy a baseball fan at all. If I had not played LL and wall ball around the neighborhood next to Memorial stadium, I doubt I would have even ever been much of a fan.

Once I discovered other sports, baseball became just background noise while we were playing hoops and football, and I grew up going to many more lacrosse games with my father than baseball games. That was what all the kids in my neighborhood started playing even back when the Os were still good and right down the street. Every once in a while we would get a small game of wall ball with 1 or 2 pitchers and 3 or 4 batters with a rectangle on the wall and fence 100 feet accross the street, but most of the time it was just football and baskett ball pickup games at the park, less than a block from the stadium and not much action on the dusty diamond in the corner.

The steroid era and falling out of contention just made it easier to not care anymore about what I was already no longer fanatic about anyway since I was 14.

[Mista T]

I think baseball is in danger of going the way of boxing and horse racing.

and


Baseball is finished all over the country and links with stats showing by how much are provided above.

Oh really???? :ref: Baseball is certainly in trouble in Baltimore, where many of our fans seem to want to prove that Irsay was right. Orioles have fallen from the darling franchise to a bottom feeder, with attendance at OPCY now below Memorial Stadium levels.

However, overall, MLB revenue and attendance continue to grow, despite the lousy economic times (http://www.bizofbaseball.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2510:inside-the-numbers-2008-mlb-attendance&catid=29:articles-a-opinion&Itemid=41):


The 2008 Major League Baseball regular season is the second highest attendance mark in history, drawing 78,624,324, falling just 1.14 percent below last year’s record of 79,502,524 in paid attendance, a sign that baseball’s popularity remains exceptionally strong. While the figure is the second best ever, forecasts at the beginning of the season were for a total attendance in excess of 80 million. Still, the strong attendance figure comes at a time when the economy has been hit exceptionally hard, gas prices impacted travel, and the weather wreaked havoc at open-air stadiums, lowering walk-up ticket purchases.

...... The other notable attendance swoon came by from the Baltimore Orioles. Attendance for the Birds came in at 1,950,075, or 9.92 percent below last season. The total attendance figure is the lowest for the Orioles since 1988 when they still played in Memorial Stadium.

...... Still, MLB has always focused on revenues, and next year should be no exception. While attendance dropped sllightly this year, revenues were up from $6.075 billion to $6.5 billion this year.


The reports of baseball's death are greatly exaggerated.:laugh:

[HoustonRaven]

Have you even been paying attention to the team lately? Andy MacPhail has been pretty much allowed to run the team without interference from Angelos for the past 2 years and has a pretty good plan in place.

And we have been in 4th place those same 2 years are looking at 4th again this year. That's your idea of improvement?


Lots of good looking players coming up and a crop of pitching talent in the minors

Excuse me while I yawn a lot. We have been hearing that same song and dance for 12 YEARS! And where is the pitching? Weiters is good, but there is always some good new kid with a hot bat on his way up that's going to help the team and cure everything. Boston went for 40+ years pimping hot batters when it took them to focus on pitching to finally get them off the "curse".


There was even an article recently about how most of the players haven't even met Angelos, he's hardly ever around the warehouse anymore. If MacPhail's plan is successful and the O's get to the playoffs in a couple of years, nice to know you won't care just because you hate the owner. Good for you

You act as if Angleos cannot stick his beak into the team in 100 other different ways.

My "let them leave" comment was a bit much. I'm willing to concede that much. Maybe you have more patience for the O's than I do. 12 years of shitty teams can make any fan question where the team is headed. I, more than anyone, hopes to be proven wrong. But leopards cannot change their spots and I do not think anyone is able to reign in Angelos and his ego.

Look, we wont agree and yes I am as stubborn as .... well, you. :thumbup:

[HoustonRaven]

I personally can't figure out why hockey isn't more highly regarded. Regular season is okay, but playoff hockey is incredible. I don't know why more people aren't into it

Agreed but I think it takes actually going to a game to get the itch.

I was bored to tears watching hockey on TV then I went to a Sharks game and was blown away.

[purplepoe]

Couple of things.

Angelos has never been a guy to frequent the clubhouse even when the team was winning.

There is no doubt the arms down on the farm have vastly more potential than the guys that were hyped over the last decade. Will they all pan out? Nope. But that's the norm with every team. I completely understand the anger towards Angelos. It burns me up as well.

BUT, to ignore the change seen over the last 2 years and brush it off as the same song and dance is a bit naive. Maybe some just look at the record again and say it's the same old song and dance. But you need to look a little deeper before making sweeping judgments.

Can Angelos come in a ruin it all in a heartbeat? Yup. All I can go on is what I've seen lately and it's different. And if Angelos does interfere you'll know it because McPhail will pack up his office and leave in a heartbeat.

In just the last few days we've seen some major changes and the beginnings of what will be a huge youth movement that includes some big time talent, not the lip service we've had during the Thrift/Flanagan/Beattie years. And the best of the arms aren't even up yet.

I get tired of everything people have brought up on this board as well. But I am definitely excited to see guys like Wieters/Hernandez/Tillman/Arrieta/Matusz/Erbe etc..... make it to the show and see what they've got.

The Orioles have gone down a long, dark path for sure. But they are still my team and the team I grew up with. The thought of them leaving town makes me sick to my stomach.

PP

[HoustonRaven]

I hear ya PP.

I have not ignored the changes. Rather, it's more of "I will believe it when I see it" mentality now -- at least when it translates into wins in the regular season.

I will be the first to eat my words.

[psuasskicker]

BUT, to ignore the change seen over the last 2 years and brush it off as the same song and dance is a bit naive. Maybe some just look at the record again and say it's the same old song and dance. But you need to look a little deeper before making sweeping judgments.

FWIW, I don't think it's the same as it was. I know things are changing quite a bit, and that's a good thing. Maybe somewhere down the line I'll change my mind about this. But Mussina was my favorite player back in those days. I was at the game when he nearly went perfect (thanks, Sandy Alomar...), one of the best baseball games I've ever seen.

Angelos doing what he did to Moose, and Moose leaving, still cuts pretty deep with me. All of it does, but that was the straw that broke my back. I refuse to support him financially, and I don't think that's changing any time soon.

It's just the way I feel about the matter...

- C -

[Losac]

Couple of things.

Angelos has never been a guy to frequent the clubhouse even when the team was winning.

There is no doubt the arms down on the farm have vastly more potential than the guys that were hyped over the last decade. Will they all pan out? Nope. But that's the norm with every team. I completely understand the anger towards Angelos. It burns me up as well.

BUT, to ignore the change seen over the last 2 years and brush it off as the same song and dance is a bit naive. Maybe some just look at the record again and say it's the same old song and dance. But you need to look a little deeper before making sweeping judgments.

Can Angelos come in a ruin it all in a heartbeat? Yup. All I can go on is what I've seen lately and it's different. And if Angelos does interfere you'll know it because McPhail will pack up his office and leave in a heartbeat.

In just the last few days we've seen some major changes and the beginnings of what will be a huge youth movement that includes some big time talent, not the lip service we've had during the Thrift/Flanagan/Beattie years. And the best of the arms aren't even up yet.

I get tired of everything people have brought up on this board as well. But I am definitely excited to see guys like Wieters/Hernandez/Tillman/Arrieta/Matusz/Erbe etc..... make it to the show and see what they've got.

The Orioles have gone down a long, dark path for sure. But they are still my team and the team I grew up with. The thought of them leaving town makes me sick to my stomach.

PP

Well said, PP.

That's one interesting thing about Angelos: he is perceived as the ultimate meddling owner, but in reality has maintained a very hands-off approach with the club to the extent that only Melvin Mora and I think Brian Roberts had actually met him until he visited the clubhouse once this year. The problem was that the decisions he did make (running Miller out of town, along with Davey Johnson and Pat Gillick) were colossal blunders. And the people he did pick as GM's - Syd Thrift, Flanagan and Beattie made horrible personnel decisions. Those moves alone set the club back a decade.

MacPhail can't turn it around overnight though. I think he has the club very well set up for contention starting next year and beyond.

On a side note, the Erik Bedard for Adam Jones/George Sherrill/Chris Tillman trade may go down as the greatest in Oriole history next to Milt Pappas for Frank Robinson.

[ravenmaniac]

Angelos USED to be very involved. Remember him telling Johnny Oates to play Leo Gomez at 3rd? He's figuring it out, I'll give him that.

[purplepoe]

Angelos USED to be very involved. Remember him telling Johnny Oates to play Leo Gomez at 3rd? He's figuring it out, I'll give him that.

Oh, there is no doubt he used to be involved in pretty much everything.

The one thing he wasn't though was visible in the locker room and/or around the team.

He'd make all sorts of awful decisions but he wouldn't be visible.

PP

[psuasskicker]

On a side note, the Erik Bedard for Adam Jones/George Sherrill/Chris Tillman trade may go down as the greatest in Oriole history next to Milt Pappas for Frank Robinson.

To this day I cannot figure out that trade. I mean, how was it not glaringly obvious to Seattle that the trade might be so awesome in the Orioles favor that it would completely off-set the Glen Davis trade (okay, maybe not, but you get the point) that it would be stupid for them to do?

Shit, I barely follow baseball these days, and as soon as I saw it finalized I knew we had just gotten away with highway robbery...

- C -

[Dave Lap]

:iagree:

The excuses for not supporting the Orioles are often weak. Sometimes I think that our fairweather fans caused us to lose the Colts.

The Ravens may be a different story because of the PSLs - fans have to renew season tickets or forfeit the PSLs.

As far as the old Colts are concerned this was NOT a town of fair weather fans. This was a true football town with DIE HARD fans.

It took an unscrupulous owner a lot of effort to get fans to not come to Colt games. Was it coincidental that he used that as the reason to move the team?

The reason I no longer support or watch the Orioles is because MLB decided that paying the players was more important than the fans right to have a competitve product. In other words free agency ruined the game for me. I can't stand the inequity of smaller market teams vs big market teams.

[Jeremiah W]

The reason I no longer support or watch the Orioles is because MLB decided that paying the players was more important than the fans right to have a competitve product. In other words free agency ruined the game for me. I can't stand the inequity of smaller market teams vs big market teams.

That is my major beef as well. I am sick of getting stuck behind the Yanks and now Sox as well. If there was NBA style standings and we did not have to play them all the time and beat them to make the post season it would be a lot more interesting.
I think we really could compete with Minnesota, Oakland or whoever wins the west but there is too much money in the Al east to contend over 162 games.

Tampa last year was a fluke and only happened becasue of so many of the balco boys were stealing money from the Yanks to replace them all in one year. As soon as the steriod tested free agents hit the market they will all go to NY.

[Mista T]

As far as the old Colts are concerned this was NOT a town of fair weather fans. This was a true football town with DIE HARD fans.


Boy ... I hate making an argument against our Baltimore fans. But, just calling a spade a spade. I am reading stuff on this forum about the Orioles that sounds like some the same sorry excuses that our fans had for quitting on the Colts in the 70s and 80s.

I may not have been as "die-hard" about the Colts as I am today about the Ravens, because I was going to school or just starting my career and household and couldn't afford the time or $$$ as I can today; however, I attended every Colts game which I could get into or could afford.


It took an unscrupulous owner a lot of effort to get fans to not come to Colt games. Was it coincidental that he used that as the reason to move the team?


Your statements about Irsay are true, although I believe the fan revolt really first came against Joe Thomas for trading Johnny U and dumping other fan favorites. After Marchibroda won the clash of egos against Thomas, the fans shifted their ire towards the always-drunken asshole Irsay.

Nonetheless, the softness of our fan support was evident pre-Irsay. In the '60s, Rosenbloom shifted exhibition games to Tampa and threatened to shop the team. In 1970, the 56 game home sellout streak ended when we couldn't sell out a playoff game against the Bengals, as the fans got insulted because the Colts switched conferences.

Of course Irsay was a culprit deserving the fans' ire; however, there were only 20,000 fans in a 60,000 seat stadium for the Colts last home game, for a team with a 7-9 record. Sure, we were die-hard fanatics in the 'late '50s and '60s, and now again in the '00s, but something was missing in-between, and it wasn't all on Irsay.

[Dave Lap]

Boy ... I hate making an argument against our Baltimore fans. But, just calling a spade a spade. I am reading stuff on this forum about the Orioles that sounds like some the same sorry excuses that our fans had for quitting on the Colts in the 70s and 80s.

I may not have been as "die-hard" about the Colts as I am today about the Ravens, because I was going to school or just starting my career and household and couldn't afford the time or $$$ as I can today; however, I attended every Colts game which I could get into or could afford.



Your statements about Irsay are true, although I believe the fan revolt really first came against Joe Thomas for trading Johnny U and dumping other fan favorites. After Marchibroda won the clash of egos against Thomas, the fans shifted their ire towards the always-drunken asshole Irsay.

Nonetheless, the softness of our fan support was evident pre-Irsay. In the '60s, Rosenbloom shifted exhibition games to Tampa and threatened to shop the team. In 1970, the 56 game home sellout streak ended when we couldn't sell out a playoff game against the Bengals, as the fans got insulted because the Colts switched conferences.

Of course Irsay was a culprit deserving the fans' ire; however, there were only 20,000 fans in a 60,000 seat stadium for the Colts last home game, for a team with a 7-9 record. Sure, we were die-hard fanatics in the 'late '50s and '60s, and now again in the '00s, but something was missing in-between, and it wasn't all on Irsay.

If it wasn't all Irsay, then what was it? There are always fans who bail when their team isn't doing well. I mean, that could be a small part of it.

I believe that, to understand the Colt fans lack of attendance in the late 70's it's important to remember that moving a franchise was unheard of back then. From the fans perspective, they contributed to sell out after sell out, bled blue and white, lived and died for the Colts. Then Irsay and Joe Thomas seemed to take out a manual entitled "How to Alienate the Best Fans in Football." I won't go into all the shit that followed but many fans retaliated by not purchasing tickets. It wasn't the won-loss record. It was the bitch slaps handed out to the fans. It was the TONS of negative PR spewed out by the Irsay regime. He was hated. Hated. More than any owner in pro sports I can recall.

As far as Oriole fans of that era, that's a different story. I remember walking up to the gate and buying a ticket for a playoff game. It wasn't a sell out. There was a time when there just wasn't a very large base of die hard baseball fans.

Baltimore has always been a football town first and baseball second-distant second, in my opinon.

And you know what? I often hear guys blaming the fans for not supporting the team-this from many different fans and many different teams but to what degree does pro sports support it's fans? I see a lot of owners and atheletes arguing over who gets a piece of the pie. I see ticket prices being raised to the point where it's too costly for a blue collar family to attend games. I see Major League Baseball paying gazillions of dollars to it's players but it doesn't even give each city a fair and even tarting point in fielding a competitive team. I know that it's a high demand product and that prices will set themselves pretty much in a free market economy but I just never seem to hear these businesses asking, what can we do for our fans?

The NFL didn't give a crap about Baltimore fans despite years of loyalty. They didn't even want to give us a team. We had to take one. We didn't even get our Colts colors back.

Just arguing this point for the purpose of adding a little bit of the other side to the equation.

[Mista T]

But I did forget something. According to this link, fans began to dwindle somewhat even before Irsay.

Colts Owner Carroll Rosenbloom made over $1M when he switched to the AFC after the merger. Many old timers didnt like not seeing their favorite teams like the Packers and Bears come to town.


No shit, Trap! That was exactly the point that I was making. Thanks for backing down and accepting my argument!:happyanim

[note: please stop, look, read the other posts, and then type!]






I often hear guys blaming the fans for not supporting the team-this from many different fans and many different teams but to what degree does pro sports support it's fans? I see a lot of owners and atheletes arguing over who gets a piece of the pie. I see ticket prices being raised to the point where it's too costly for a blue collar family to attend games.

Dave3: that's is true of the Ravens, but the Orioles are different. Our Ravens tickets and tailgate parking have gotten so damned expensive that we're talking about establishing a budget next year to pay for them, while O's games go for petty cash. Orioles ticket prices have gone up at a rate lower than inflation. With the $8 admission, a family of four can go to a game for about $50, including parking, pretzel, and sodas bought on Eutaw promenade. As cheap as a movie.

I'm not defending Angelos as being a good owner, because he screwed up enough a few years back with the Mussina fiasco to earn my disdain. But I don't put him in the same boat as Irsay. Angelos has kept Orioles prices at an attainable level for almost every one.

[Mista T]

HEY T - Check out these attendance figures for COLTS PO games after the merger. Not too shabby. Read and weep.

1971 - PO GAME VS OAK - 54,799


You made my point again, Trap, that the die-hard support that we witnessed in the late 50s and 60s had ebbed before Irsay had ever heard of Baltimore.

That was 5,000 unsold tickets. A home playoff game which was blacked out in Baltimore. Add a few thousand no-shows, it was an embarassment.








I WAS THERE.

I can state that as well, for all the Colts playoff games in the late 60s and 70s, without "shouting" in all caps! What's the point? We are "die-hards", as evidenced by spending time debating on a Ravens board in late May.