Passing Camp Notes & Observations (May 19,2009)

[TL24x7]

The mood was spirited in Owings Mills today as the Ravens participated in their second day of passing camp and first open to the media. The scare of the day took place late in the practice when the first team offense took on the first team defense. Joe Flacco was flushed out of the pocket and dashed towards the left sideline with Tavares Gooden in hot pursuit and gaining ground. After a gain of 10+ yards Flacco fell hard to the ground as he neared the far sideline, rolled and then popped up on his feet as if nothing happened. At the time it was unclear if Gooden’s feet became entangled with Flacco’s or if Flacco was tripped up by another player or fell on his own. The fall triggered a boisterous reaction from most of the players watching. Flacco continued with no ill effects from the fall.

(Since the initial posting of this camp report it has been learned that Flacco fall was caused by Brendon Ayanbadejo...3:56PM)

The complete notes HERE (http://www.profootball24x7.com/column_view.php?cid=29&id=3470&view=archive)

If you have any questions not addressed in these notes post them here and I'll answer them in a Q&A follow up tomorrow.

[Rxdoxx]

Thanks Tony


The throw was perfectly place and Jones showed nice hands and footwork along the sideline before getting out of bounds. That was one thing I was wondering about, now have to learn how good a blocker he is

Is there another year for Reitz to be on the PS? Your report doesn't sound encouraging that he has made great progress.

Lol, Eron didn't do anything to go after Yamon's job but he may not have to, just sit back and watch Yamon lose it
Running a skinny post on the play, the shaky receiver seemed a bit distracted by the safety closing in on the play If he is as afraid of contact as a receiver like he became as a returner, I'm considering him cut already.

[jonboy79]

Thanks Tony

Is there another year for Reitz to be on the PS? Your report doesn't sound encouraging that he has made great progress.
.

Don't forget he is not only learning a new position, but a new sport. He was a basketbal player tha tcame in as a TE, and has since moved to OT.
DeCosta was VERY happy with him recently on the radio, etc. I think they see a future for him on the roster, SOME DAY. He is and alwyas has been a long term project.

[Raveninwoodlawn]

Figurs is Clarence Moore squared.

[Paintballguy]

Figurs is Clarence Moore squared.

Yeah, Figurs is a shorter and faster Clarence Moore.

[psuasskicker]

No joke. Figurs is toast. 0.0001% chance he makes this roster.

- C -

[ace2die]

Question about Eron Riley, was ha present? Just not impressive?

[HoustonRaven]

Why am I not surprised in the least that Todd Heap is nowhere to be found?

[jonboy79]

Becuase he is hurt as always... Out with lower back pain.

[Raveninwoodlawn]

Seriously...getting scared of being hit in non-contact passing camps?

I'm done with him.

[Dade]

Lets cut Figurs now so Al Davis can sign him. We all know how he loves those speed players.

[psuasskicker]

Ravens must love speed players too.

They drafted him.

Oh please...

- C -

[effo5231]

Of the three quarterbacks, John Beck was the most inconsistent. He threw an interception to Tavares Gooden outside the left hash mark. The second year backer showed a great burst to the ball and from this writer’s perspective he’s the fastest linebacker the Ravens have ever had – at least on the practice field.

Gooden is almost WR fast, during the whole "which WR will the Raven's draft" debate, I watched a Hakeem Nicks highlight reel in which Nicks caught the ball on an out and up and got ran down from behind in the open field by Gooden.

[HoustonRaven]

Nobody is saying Heap is a bad guy, but lets face facts.

His injuries have been at the absolute worst times not only him the team but for his career.

Does that mean he gets the "soft" label? I do not think so personally but it's not a far stretch either.

As he has got older, his value to this team has dropped. It's not about being a hater or anything, those are just facts.

[jonboy79]

Nobody is saying Heap is a bad guy, but lets face facts.

His injuries have been at the absolute worst times not only him the team but for his career.

Does that mean he gets the "soft" label? I do not think so personally but it's not a far stretch either.

As he has got older, his value to this team has dropped. It's not about being a hater or anything, those are just facts.

HGIs contract grows each year as he gets older, softer and worse progressively as well.
From all reports he's a great guy, I have no doubt about that. But he hasn't lived up to his contract in a few years, and he has trouble staying on the field. It doesn't matter if it's a sever injury or a little nick, the fact is, the guy misses a lot of games, too many for a guy that doesn't play up to his contract when healthy.

[Dave Lap]

For all those slamming Heap for being soft, here is the real story on him. He hurt his lower back but played with the pain all thru the POs including Tenn when he beat them with that catch over the middle with 3 guys hitting him at the same time while he was hurting like hell.

TE is also one of the toughest positions in football to play and it didnt help having Boller throw him all those bad passes that had him reaching behind further exposing his back to hard hits.

Some of you might owe him an apology after reading this. He went from sugar to sh*t in this town.


http://www.baltimoreravens.com/News/Articles/2009/05/Mason_Out_Heap_Limited.aspx

I don't have to read it. He's sacrificed a lot for the team. I think he has a couple of good years left if he stays healthy. That's a big IF though. The hits he took to his lower back over the years catching passes over the middle just made me wince. He would completely extend his body knowing that the hit was coming. I knew his health wasn't going to last long with the way he played..

As far as Figurs goes, I'm probably the only one still thinking he can turn into a receiver. He's got to get over his softness really really fast if he wants to make this team.

[psuasskicker]

HGIs contract grows each year as he gets older, softer and worse progressively as well.
From all reports he's a great guy, I have no doubt about that. But he hasn't lived up to his contract in a few years, and he has trouble staying on the field. It doesn't matter if it's a sever injury or a little nick, the fact is, the guy misses a lot of games, too many for a guy that doesn't play up to his contract when healthy.

:word

It's not about whether a guy has given up everything for the team. He has, there's no question about that.

It's about whether his production lives up to his contract. It hasn't. Sorry, but that's an issue.

- C -

[HoustonRaven]

It's about whether his production lives up to his contract. It hasn't. Sorry, but that's an issue.

+1

All you have to do is look at his production the last four seasons and it becomes as close to a no-brainer as it can get.

Two of those 4 seasons he did not finish a full season, missing 20 games I believe.

The kid has heart and desire. No question. But unless that translates into on-field production, he is taking up valuable cap space.

[HoustonRaven]

His productivity has fallen the LAST FOUR YEARS, not just last season.

ok, so he blocked more in Cam's scheme. Fine. Explain the previous 3 seasons then?

And blocking for one season doesn't explain the last 6 seasons of one injury after the next.

[psuasskicker]

And the article said part of the reason for lack of production is CAM held Heap in to block to protect Joe last year so that cut down.

He came thru and produced in Tenn.

Do any of you guys have a fathom of an idea how tough it is to play TE?

DAVE LAP - Great post and you are right on. How soon they forget.

I don't particularly care how tough it is to play TE. No position in the NFL is easy to play...that's not a valid argument.

What I care about is how he's producing vs. what we're paying him. If he were earning middle-of-the-road dollars, I wouldn't care about his level of play. He's played solid football for us, and in a vacuum I'm happy with his production overall.

But the reality is that he's paid as one of if not the top TE in the game. He is simply not that. Gonzalez, Witten, Clark, Gates, Cooley, Scheffler...all guys I'd take in front of Heap without thinking twice. Others I'd probably take before him are Pettigrew, Shiancoe, Owen Daniels, Greg Olsen, Kevin Boss, Dustin Keller, Heath Miller, and Bo Scaife. Maybe Winslow, Daniel Graham and Zach Miller, too.

He's an average at best starter in the NFL. He's paid like a top three to five guy. You're essentially arguing that it'd be okay if we were paying Derrick Mason $10 million a year. No, that's not okay.

- C -

[jonboy79]

I don't particularly care how tough it is to play TE. No position in the NFL is easy to play...that's not a valid argument.

What I care about is how he's producing vs. what we're paying him. If he were earning middle-of-the-road dollars, I wouldn't care about his level of play. He's played solid football for us, and in a vacuum I'm happy with his production overall.

But the reality is that he's paid as one of if not the top TE in the game. He is simply not that. Gonzalez, Witten, Clark, Gates, Cooley, Scheffler...all guys I'd take in front of Heap without thinking twice. Others I'd probably take before him are Pettigrew, Shiancoe, Owen Daniels, Greg Olsen, Kevin Boss, Dustin Keller, Heath Miller, and Bo Scaife. Maybe Winslow, Daniel Graham and Zach Miller, too.

He's an average at best starter in the NFL. He's paid like a top three to five guy. You're essentially arguing that it'd be okay if we were paying Derrick Mason $10 million a year. No, that's not okay.

- C -

I'd mix around the relative value of some of the players on your list(Heath Miller absolutely belongs in the top group, probably Pettigrew as well) and I'd add Vernon Davis to the bottom group, but as a whole I'm righ there with you.

Trap, LJ is basically Heap's equal at this point, a little worse, I'll give you that, in both facets of the game, btu then again, he costs less then a third what Heap does. LJ is no worse then 90% the receiver or blocker that Heap is.

iF Heap's cap number suited his production(around $2mish) I would not be complaining about his presence atop our depth chart.

And the blocking shtick is a joke. All TE's are held in to block. We are talking about a couple targets a game AT WORST that he's missing out on. He needed to AT LEAST triple his production last year to be eliter. His contract is elite.

[psuasskicker]

Talk about production, the guy they picked up, LJ Smith isnt as good a blocker as Heap is and if you ask the fans in Philly, they arent crying over his departure.

BTW, Crumpler was the other good TE taken in the same draft in 01. Both made All Pro. Heap has almost twice as many yards as him last year and more TDs while banged up.

So we are getting more production of Heap than the other TE of the same age. Maybe wear and tear is wearing them both out.

I remember NE trying to trade up for Heap. Oz knew he would get either Heap or Crumpler in that draft. Im sure Heap would have preferred Brady throwing all those balls to him instead of Boller. His back might be feeling better.


Here are Crumplers stats.

http://www.nfl.com/players/algecrumpler/profile?id=CRU467810

No one in this thread mentioned Crumpler, nor LJ Smith. You're the first one to bring him up, and I didn't mention either as being better than Heap.

Your point is irrelevant. I could name 30 other TEs in this league Heap is better than, probably more.

The point is that he's paid to be an elite player, and he's not. Like I said, it's like arguing that it'd be okay for Mason to be making $10MM/year.

- C -

[JimZipCode]

I actually thought Heap played tremendously last season. He had a couple of drops that make you wince, partic a TD pass in I think the opener. Those were bad. But his blocking was one of the keys to the season. I never thought of Heap as a "blocking TE", but he was really excellent in that role. All those times we went to the unbalanced line last year? Heap was over on the other side, where the tackle moved away from, playing offensive tackle and holding his ground. He developed an aspect of his game that, frankly, I didn't think he really had before last season.

Chris, if you're about to say that Heap doesn't have the contract of a "blocking TE", and his production didn't match the contract, I won't argue with you. But I'm not ready to write-off Heap yet. Harbaugh has said that this offseason they're working on adding more intermediate routes to the offense, and that's an area where Heap has excelled in the past. The Ravens have more talent at tackle now with Oher; that might free up Heap to go out in the pattern more often. And Cameron loves pass-catching TEs. It would not surprise me to see Heap put up numbers more like 2006, this year.

At least, I hope so. ;-)

[jonboy79]

No it isn't. My point is that the TEs Heap's age aren't producing as much as Heap is. That is relevant. That position wears down.

Does anyone remember Porter falling on Heaps ankle before the snap a few years ago. How would you like 300 lbs falling on your ankle.

See Tony Gonzalez.

[jonboy79]

I actually thought Heap played tremendously last season. He had a couple of drops that make you wince, partic a TD pass in I think the opener. Those were bad. But his blocking was one of the keys to the season. I never thought of Heap as a "blocking TE", but he was really excellent in that role. All those times we went to the unbalanced line last year? Heap was over on the other side, where the tackle moved away from, playing offensive tackle and holding his ground. He developed an aspect of his game that, frankly, I didn't think he really had before last season.

Chris, if you're about to say that Heap doesn't have the contract of a "blocking TE", and his production didn't match the contract, I won't argue with you. But I'm not ready to write-off Heap yet. Harbaugh has said that this offseason they're working on adding more intermediate routes to the offense, and that's an area where Heap has excelled in the past. The Ravens have more talent at tackle now with Oher; that might free up Heap to go out in the pattern more often. And Cameron loves pass-catching TEs. It would not surprise me to see Heap put up numbers more like 2006, this year.

At least, I hope so. ;-)

Heap wen't from a terrible blocker to perhaps average last year. If he was nearly as good as Daniel Graham or that guy from SD who's name escapes me(Manumaleuna) right now, I wouldn't be complaining as hard...

[jonboy79]

Vernon Davis was an outstanding blocker last year, particularly in the run game, on the move.

[Dave Lap]

I wonder how passing camp went today? Articles I read had good things to say.

Like Flacco's intermediate passing and blitz decision making looked sharp.

Guys seem impressed with Michael Oher and Paul Kruger. I thought Kruger was maybe a bad pick at first but I am happily starting to change my mind.

That Ray Rice is in great shape and 10 pounds of muscle heavier.

That D Williams has bulked up.

That Tavares Gooden is looking like he can be a good linebacker.

That many vets have reported to the voluntary camp.

It's still way too early to make any judgements but I like what I'm hearing so far.

[jonboy79]

JON - Heap was always a lousy blocker. As you said, he improved some but many if not most TEs cant block. Mackey and Ditka could catch and block.

Hey - you guys are right. Im not disputing that. Just trying to splain why Heap's and the numbers of other good TEs are down. It also has to do with the way they are being used like being held back to block more like in Heap's case last yr.



And this is PRECISELY why I was all about Pettigrew this year. TE's all over are being held in to protect these valuable QB's, they are morphing back into a 6th OLineman. A TE that can block like a lineman, but also go out 14 yards into a soft spot in a zone and come down with a ball in traffic would be a HUGE ASSET. I'm not nearly as concerned if he can beat a Safety 40 yards down the field...

[awalt]

As an FYI, if you do some searching around, you may find that there is concern that Quinn Sypniewski's knee is not healthy. He may not be someone to count on this year.

[awalt]

Me too and I even told DeCosta last week he should have traded up for Pettigrew instead of Oher. You are right.

The game is evolving backwards to keep TEs to block. Maybe its because of the huge D-linemen that are so much faster and bigger and stronger. John Mackey revolutionized the game as a deep TE threat. of course, he had Unitas throwing to him.

Now, they seem to keep them in which is all the more reason for Pettigrew plus he can find those dead spots 14 yds out as you say and run after catching the ball.

As much as I liked Pettigrew, with a rehabbing Adam Terry and unproven injured Oniel Cousins at RT, I am thankful Ozzie drafted Oher. You could have reincarnated John Mackey out there but if Flacco has speed rushers in his face he won't find them.

[Dave Lap]

As an FYI, if you do some searching around, you may find that there is concern that Quinn Sypniewski's knee is not healthy. He may not be someone to count on this year.

Bummer. I'm worried about Yanda's knee too.