Best Player Available, But...

[12jg34]

Everyone on this board knows that the Ravens draft philosophy is best player available, but there are exceptions to this rule. For example, it's almost a near certainty that if the best player available is a QB in the first round, the Ravens wouldn't select a QB. Therefore, need does factor in a little in the Ravens draft decisions.

My question is, what positions, other than QB, do you think the Ravens wouldn't use their best player available philosophy with their first round pick? Or do you think every position is on the table in the first round except for QB?

I'd say RB is a position there's little chance the Ravens use their first pick on. What's everyone think?

[effo5231]

I disagree that RB is off limits in round 1, I think if the improbable happens and Moreno or Wells is available at 26th, the Ravens would snap either up in a heartbeat. Other than QB, no position on this team would be adversely affected by competition for a starting job.

[Jeremiah W]

BPA by far is Peppers. They can use this #26 pick and the 2010 pick, or wait until after the draft and use the 2010 ans 2011 1st round picks to get him.

[jonboy79]

BPA by far is Peppers. They can use this #26 pick and the 2010 pick, or wait until after the draft and use the 2010 ans 2011 1st round picks to get him.

Except there is NO POSSIBLE way to get him under the cap...

I would be incredibly surprised if a first round pick was used by the ravens in the '09 draft on:

QB
RB
FB
OG
OC
DT
S
Basically that leaves WR, TE, DE, OLB, ILB, CB... Now I could certainly see BPA among those positions.

[baltimore_hokie]

with no corner worthy of our pick likely to be available, i doubt we go that direction in the first. i also doubt that we take pettigrew with bigger needs on this team. that leaves it to WR (nicks, DHB, harvin), DE (tyson jackson), or LB (Lauranitis, any of the USC guys, English, etc.). depending on how the early part of the draft goes, one of these guys will likely be who take....if we stay put. barring a top-10 talent slipping for unforeseen reasons or us trading up/down, these are likely the guys we will be looking at.

[12jg34]

Except there is NO POSSIBLE way to get him under the cap...

I would be incredibly surprised if a first round pick was used by the ravens in the '09 draft on:

QB
RB
FB
OG
OC
DT
S
Basically that leaves WR, TE, DE, OLB, ILB, CB... Now I could certainly see BPA among those positions.

I think safety and FB are definitely out, most likely OG too. I think RB is more of a debate than S, FB, and OG, but I still don't see them drafting one with the first pick.

I do, however, think DL is always a possibility with the Ravens, especially a true 3-4 DE. Trevor Pryce's replacement needs to be found, a pass rushing DT/DE.

[Jeremiah W]

Except there is NO POSSIBLE way to get him under the cap...

I would be incredibly surprised if a first round pick was used by the ravens in the '09 draft on:

QB
RB
FB
OG
OC
DT
S
Basically that leaves WR, TE, DE, OLB, ILB, CB... Now I could certainly see BPA among those positions.

I don't know how so many people think they know exactly how the salary cap works, but you are wrong. Like the Skins made room to get Haynesworth and Hall and bring back the big G they lost to the Bills a couple years ago, there are a lot of ways to move money around to make it work when you are talking about one player, it is always possible. All they need is for Peppers to want to play here, they can work out the compensation.

How can we have a football discussion without breaking down the finacial angle in everything? Just because the Ravens tend not to make a big splash in free agency does not mean they can not. Over the past 2 years they have torn up a lot of huge "contracts" and while they may not have a ton of "cap space" they also do not have nearly the kind of big bonus money tied up that a lot of other teams do. Dallas, Washington, Oakland, New York, New York and New England to name a few. You can argue that it is not a good idea, but it is flat out wrong to argue that it can not be done.

[B-more Ravor]

I don't know how so many people think they know exactly how the salary cap works, but you are wrong. Like the Skins made room to get Haynesworth and Hall and bring back the big G they lost to the Bills a couple years ago, there are a lot of ways to move money around to make it work when you are talking about one player, it is always possible.

Yes, it's always possible. OTOH, it can mean major cap problems in the future. The Skins go through constant cycles of binge and purge because of their cap excesses.

And, what has it gotten them?

Seriously, you just need to move on because this ain't gonna happen, regardless of how many times you post it.


How can we have a football discussion without breaking down the finacial angle in everything? Just because the Ravens tend not to make a big splash in free agency does not mean they can not. Over the past 2 years they have torn up a lot of huge "contracts" and while they may not have a ton of "cap space" they also do not have nearly the kind of big bonus money tied up that a lot of other teams do.

Actually, they do. Heap and Reed were given top of the market deals. McGahee's deal also included substantial bonus money. Suggs is counting over $10M. They are carrying more than $16M in dead money for JO, McNair, CMac, Rolle and Greisen. They have several older players who can not be restructured because of their age - Pryce, Gregg. Mason is in the last year of his deal, any restructure would be an extension and would cost them more against the cap.

You can continue to piss into the wind and say that they can easily do it, but you have offered nothing to show that they can, other than your statement that they can.

[Jeremiah W]

Yes, it's always possible. OTOH, it can mean major cap problems in the future. The Skins go through constant cycles of binge and purge because of their cap excesses.

And, what has it gotten them?

Seriously, you just need to move on because this ain't gonna happen, regardless of how many times you post it.



Actually, they do. Heap and Reed were given top of the market deals. McGahee's deal also included substantial bonus money. Suggs is counting over $10M. They are carrying more than $16M in dead money for JO, McNair, CMac, Rolle and Greisen. They have several older players who can not be restructured because of their age - Pryce, Gregg. Mason is in the last year of his deal, any restructure would be an extension and would cost them more against the cap.

You can continue to piss into the wind and say that they can easily do it, but you have offered nothing to show that they can, other than your statement that they can.

Just because I do not know how Washington and Dallas do it, does not mean I do not know that they do. Look at the players they have and how they get them and tell me how the Ravens can do it if you feel like it. I also know that just becasue I want it to happen does not mean that it will, it just suprises me that so many fans seem so convinced the Ravens are always out of cap space even though they always seem to let more good players go then most teams and find more diamond in the rough type players than any other team.

[jonboy79]

Just because I do not know how Washington and Dallas do it, does not mean I do not know that they do. Look at the players they have and how they get them and tell me how the Ravens can do it if you feel like it. I also know that just becasue I want it to happen does not mean that it will, it just suprises me that so many fans seem so convinced the Ravens are always out of cap space even though they always seem to let more good players go then most teams and find more diamond in the rough type players than any other team.

It's because they CONSTANTLY get themselves STUCK in bad contracts. They pay their own guys as the tops at their position over and over again, whether they deserve it or not.
Washington does these things by restructuring everyone every year. Indy has gone to doing the same thing. Peyton Manning I believe counts over $20m this year. What happens when you constantly make these big splashes is that you end up with a bunch of primadonna's and a bunch of UFA's.

You are missing the boat here debating teh cap with a guy here that analyzes the cap for this site. Without getting rid of TSizzle, it is all but impossible for the Ravens to get Peppers. Sure they could restructure Pryce, Suggs, Gregg, Anderson, Reed, et al, but then next year we will be in worse shape(unless it's uncapped).

[baltimore_hokie]

Just because I do not know how Washington and Dallas do it, does not mean I do not know that they do. Look at the players they have and how they get them and tell me how the Ravens can do it if you feel like it. I also know that just becasue I want it to happen does not mean that it will, it just suprises me that so many fans seem so convinced the Ravens are always out of cap space even though they always seem to let more good players go then most teams and find more diamond in the rough type players than any other team.


it's okay man, relax. i remember the first time i was in love...

[B-more Ravor]

Just because I do not know how Washington and Dallas do it, does not mean I do not know that they do. Look at the players they have and how they get them and tell me how the Ravens can do it if you feel like it. I also know that just becasue I want it to happen does not mean that it will......

OK, so you don't know, but you think it can easily be done and is a smart thing to do?!?!?

Washington - Again, they binge and purge and it's gotten them NOWHERE. All restructuring does it make it more likely that you will need to do the same thing over again the next year (see also Ravens, 1996-2002).

Dallas - I'm not sure why people always bring Dallas into the discussion. Dallas has not had a really highly paid roster (since the late 90s) until the last 2 years. But, the thing is that most of those highly paid guys (Romo, Barber, Davis, Newman, etc) just signed big deal within the last 2 years, so they are relatively cheap because under the Cap rules at the time, it was easy to backload contracts. This year - the last capped year - the rules make it not so easy to do, which means the Ravens can't do so now.

And, Dallas is doing it so well - when was the last time Dallas won a playoff game?

NE - Who other than Brady, Moss and AD have big contracts again?

As far as the Ravens go, please show me where they can create cap space! The fact that they are carrying $16M in dead money is where the problem really is. That dead money comes from aging veterans who have outlived their contracts. CMac signed his when he was 27. That should be illustrative of the risk you take when signing players who are approaching 30 to sizeable long term deals.


........it just suprises me that so many fans seem so convinced the Ravens are always out of cap space even though they always seem to let more good players go then most teams and find more diamond in the rough type players than any other team.

They are not always out of cap space. They were very tight in 2007 and 2008. In 2005, they signed Mason and Rolle to sizeable deals. In 2006, they signed Pryce and trade for McNair and gave them both sizeable deals. In 2007, the gave McGahee a sizeable deal.

But, what they are unwilling to do - and really can this year because of the new cap rules - is extend themselves as Washington always does and how the Ravens did in 1999-2002. That is a sure way of making for a painful parting of the ways with players that you do not want to lose, but have to because of the cap.

[italianjoker]

BPA by far is Peppers. They can use this #26 pick and the 2010 pick, or wait until after the draft and use the 2010 ans 2011 1st round picks to get him.

are you retarded? seriously? Special Olympics? does Jerry Lewis have a Telethon for you every year?

on top of that, you do realize if they traded away our 1st rounder this year you would not be able to get your hero DHB, don't you?

[Jeremiah W]

It's because they CONSTANTLY get themselves STUCK in bad contracts. They pay their own guys as the tops at their position over and over again, whether they deserve it or not.
Washington does these things by restructuring everyone every year. Indy has gone to doing the same thing. Peyton Manning I believe counts over $20m this year. What happens when you constantly make these big splashes is that you end up with a bunch of primadonna's and a bunch of UFA's.

You are missing the boat here debating teh cap with a guy here that analyzes the cap for this site. Without getting rid of TSizzle, it is all but impossible for the Ravens to get Peppers. Sure they could restructure Pryce, Suggs, Gregg, Anderson, Reed, et al, but then next year we will be in worse shape(unless it's uncapped).

My question is they do it constantly, why can't we do it once? Extending Suggs creates cap room, so would cutting Kelly Gregg and getting Reed to restructure, maybe Heap. The Ravens would not be locked into a lot of bad contracts, and next year is scheduled to be uncapped, but even if there is a cap, it will most likley go up and a ton of "dead money" comes off and guys like Pryce, Willy and any vet becomes that much more easy to cut.

[jonboy79]

I think safety and FB are definitely out, most likely OG too. I think RB is more of a debate than S, FB, and OG, but I still don't see them drafting one with the first pick.

I do, however, think DL is always a possibility with the Ravens, especially a true 3-4 DE. Trevor Pryce's replacement needs to be found, a pass rushing DT/DE.

With McGahee required to be on the team AT LEAST thsi upcoming year, and add in Rice an dMcClain and three is no way we draft a day 1 RB. I jsut don't see it, it would be a foolish move. replace McGahee after he is gone, not before. RB's get drafted every year in the fifth round and contribute immediately, there is no other position like it.

I absolutely agree that Tyson Jackson or Evander Hood could be the selection, but I do consier them 3-4 DE's, which i left off the list of No-Go's. I simply don't think we'll take a NT like Brace or SenDerrick Marks...

And Hokie- I'm not sure there is a player even remotely posssible to being available that would hold more value then Pettigrew. I would wager large sums of money that if available, he is the pick. Even with LJ Smith I thik it is one of the weaker roster spots as a whole. Top to Bottom we have three question marks. Quinn may never come back full strength, and LJ and Heap are AT LEAST in the October of their careeer, maybe even Novembers. Personally I think we could use an upgrade at each level of the position.
I would take Pettigrew over DHB, Nicks, Britt, Harvin Et all, as well as every LB including Mauluga(obviously not Curry), Tyson Jackson, basically everyone. He'd be a lock for top 15 on my version of the Raven's big board.

[baltimore_hokie]

With McGahee required to be on the team AT LEAST thsi upcoming year, and add in Rice an dMcClain and three is no way we draft a day 1 RB. I jsut don't see it, it would be a foolish move. replace McGahee after he is gone, not before. RB's get drafted every year in the fifth round and contribute immediately, there is no other position like it.

I absolutely agree that Tyson Jackson or Evander Hood could be the selection, but I do consier them 3-4 DE's, which i left off the list of No-Go's. I simply don't think we'll take a NT like Brace or SenDerrick Marks...

And Hokie- I'm not sure there is a player even remotely posssible to being available that would hold more value then Pettigrew. I would wager large sums of money that if available, he is the pick. Even with LJ Smith I thik it is one of the weaker roster spots as a whole. Top to Bottom we have three question marks. Quinn may never come back full strength, and LJ and Heap are AT LEAST in the October of their careeer, maybe even Novembers. Personally I think we could use an upgrade at each level of the position.
I would take Pettigrew over DHB, Nicks, Britt, Harvin Et all, as well as every LB including Mauluga(obviously not Curry), Tyson Jackson, basically everyone. He'd be a lock for top 15 on my version of the Raven's big board.

i think tyson jackson and pettigrew are probably +/- 5 picks on our board. he is a monster that would fit perfectly into our system. while heap and smith are getting up there in age, they are nowhere near as old as trevor pryce and do not play a position that is as valuable these days in the NFL. there are options in the 2nd - 4th rounds that could fulfill our needs at TE sufficiently, especially if our tackles continue to improve and need less help. after seeing what the giants have done with their DL and where it has gotten their defense, a DE is a much more influential pick than a TE. i think pettigrew is a great player, but i think the need at TE is much less than that of our DL (with gregg possibly not playing, edwards coming off surgery, pryce old as shit and thinking about retiring, etc.)

[Jeremiah W]

OK, so you don't know, but you think it can easily be done and is a smart thing to do?!?!?

Washington - Again, they binge and purge and it's gotten them NOWHERE. All restructuring does it make it more likely that you will need to do the same thing over again the next year (see also Ravens, 1996-2002).

Dallas - I'm not sure why people always bring Dallas into the discussion. Dallas has not had a really highly paid roster (since the late 90s) until the last 2 years. But, the thing is that most of those highly paid guys (Romo, Barber, Davis, Newman, etc) just signed big deal within the last 2 years, so they are relatively cheap because under the Cap rules at the time, it was easy to backload contracts. This year - the last capped year - the rules make it not so easy to do, which means the Ravens can't do so now.

And, Dallas is doing it so well - when was the last time Dallas won a playoff game?

NE - Who other than Brady, Moss and AD have big contracts again?

As far as the Ravens go, please show me where they can create cap space! The fact that they are carrying $16M in dead money is where the problem really is. That dead money comes from aging veterans who have outlived their contracts. CMac signed his when he was 27. That should be illustrative of the risk you take when signing players who are approaching 30 to sizeable long term deals.



They are not always out of cap space. They were very tight in 2007 and 2008. In 2005, they signed Mason and Rolle to sizeable deals. In 2006, they signed Pryce and trade for McNair and gave them both sizeable deals. In 2007, the gave McGahee a sizeable deal.

But, what they are unwilling to do - and really can this year because of the new cap rules - is extend themselves as Washington always does and how the Ravens did in 1999-2002. That is a sure way of making for a painful parting of the ways with players that you do not want to lose, but have to because of the cap.

I never said Dallas and Washington got the right players but they paid the right price to get who ever they wanted.

Who else on NE and Dallas makes a lot of money you ask? Seymore, Mayo was a top 10 pick. Insted of trying to find the starters they have that are big money, try to find the "home town discount" players. Dallas has nothing but 1st and 2nd round picks or big money free agents accross the board.

http://content.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/salaries/totalpayroll.aspx?year=2008

There is a huge gap in actuall payed out money between the Ravens and the teams at the top. I don't care how they explain it, I want premium players, at least one Julius Peppers and possibly a #1 WR. Make it work.
ravens
http://content.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/salaries/teamdetail.aspx?team=4&year=2008

boys
http://content.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/salaries/teamdetail.aspx?year=2008&team=10&order=CapValue+desc

[B-more Ravor]

My question is they do it constantly, why can't we do it once?

The Skins do it constantly because they have forced themselves into a position to do so. They are also pretty much the only team that does so. They are also 8 games under .500 since Snyder took over and started doing so.

As I said earlier, the Ravens have done so in the past (1999-2002). It caused the purge of 2002. Other teams have done the same and had similar purges. The most successful franchises (NE, Pitts, Philly, Indy, Tenn) do not go hog wild on the FA market. They draft well, retain their key players and make an occasional splurge on the FA market. Notice that the Skins and Cowboys are not amongst those successful franchises.


Extending Suggs creates cap room, so would cutting Kelly Gregg and getting Reed to restructure, maybe Heap. The Ravens would not be locked into a lot of bad contracts, and next year is scheduled to be uncapped, but even if there is a cap, it will most likley go up and a ton of "dead money" comes off and guys like Pryce, Willy and any vet becomes that much more easy to cut.

Unfortunately, signing Suggs to an extension won't create the large about of Cap space that it used to. In the past it would have taken his cap number down to around $5M, but this year, it'll likely still be in the $7-8M range because of how the 30% rule operates.

They aren't going to cut Kelly Gregg, and it only saves them around $1M anyway.

They aren't going to restructure Heap. They just did so last year and there is no way they want to throw more money into the future on a guy who might not even be around next year. That will only create more dead money upon his departure.

They aren't going to restructure Reed, given his neck injury. Restructuring him means more bonus money that will need to be accounted for in the future and if he has to retire earlier, more dead money.

Yes, the $16M in dead money comes off of the books for next year, but the salary for every player that is under contract for next year is going to increase, and in some cases by a couple of million. The Cap is not static, so the fact that the $16M won't be on the books next year does not mean that they will have $16M more to spend.

[Dave Lap]

Except there is NO POSSIBLE way to get him under the cap...

I would be incredibly surprised if a first round pick was used by the ravens in the '09 draft on:

QB
RB
FB
OG
OC
DT
S
Basically that leaves WR, TE, DE, OLB, ILB, CB... Now I could certainly see BPA among those positions.

I see your point but would add that it depends also on HOW much better a player at another position is, relative to who is available at the needed position. If there is an elite guard available and the rest of the available players are well below that player on the board, I think they either take the guard or trade that pick and pick a couple spots down.

If someone is too good to pass up, take him. You'll never regret it regardless of position.

[Jeremiah W]

Yes, the $16M in dead money comes off of the books for next year, but the salary for every player that is under contract for next year is going to get an increase in salary, and in some cases a bump of a couple of million. The Cap is not static, so the fact that the $16M won't be on the books next year does not mean that they will have $16M more to spend.

Why not? It seems like that money will directly be added to the mix. Also if there is no cap next year, there is no cap space issue.

[jonboy79]

i think tyson jackson and pettigrew are probably +/- 5 picks on our board. he is a monster that would fit perfectly into our system. while heap and smith are getting up there in age, they are nowhere near as old as trevor pryce and do not play a position that is as valuable these days in the NFL. there are options in the 2nd - 4th rounds that could fulfill our needs at TE sufficiently, especially if our tackles continue to improve and need less help. after seeing what the giants have done with their DL and where it has gotten their defense, a DE is a much more influential pick than a TE. i think pettigrew is a great player, but i think the need at TE is much less than that of our DL (with gregg possibly not playing, edwards coming off surgery, pryce old as shit and thinking about retiring, etc.)

Don't get me wrong, at the moment Jackson is my second choice for likely to be available players... He is a monster that would fit well. A lot of it has to do with the fact that I think Pryce and Banna or gregg, followed by Edwards, McKinney, et al, is a MUCH better depthchart top to bottom then Heap, Smith, Syp... I think Pryce is CLEARLY playing at a higher level then Heap, And there are some bodies behind that are not hateful.
A lot of this stems from the fact that I think Heap is a merely AVERAGE starter at this point is his career, perhaps not even quite that.

[purplepoe]

Why not? It seems like that money will directly be added to the mix. Also if there is no cap next year, there is no cap space issue.

You are the man.

The questioned you asked is answered in the quote you used from Ravor yet you don't even know it.

Priceless.

PP

[jonboy79]

I see your point but would add that it depends also on HOW much better a player at another position is, relative to who is available at the needed position. If there is an elite guard available and the rest of the available players are well below that player on the board, I think they either take the guard or trade that pick and pick a couple spots down.

If someone is too good to pass up, take him. You'll never regret it regardless of position.

I think selecting another Guard early would simply mean there is no option to re-sign Grubbs, and I don't see the point in trading one for the other.

[Jeremiah W]

You are the man.

The questioned you asked is answered in the quote you used from Ravor yet you don't even know it.

Priceless.

PP

The question was not answered. The 16 mil in dead money won't be there next year. The contracts that are on the books were on the books anyway, the 16 mil was not. Some players will make more money next season than this one, but that has nothing to do with the "dead money" issue.

[purplepoe]

The question was not answered. The 16 mil in dead money won't be there next year. The contracts that are on the books were on the books anyway, the 16 mil was not. Some players will make more money next season than this one, but that has nothing to do with the "dead money" issue.


Yes, the $16M in dead money comes off of the books for next year, but the salary for every player that is under contract for next year is going to increase, and in some cases by a couple of million. The Cap is not static, so the fact that the $16M won't be on the books next year does not mean that they will have $16M more to spend.

You really don't see your answer?

PP

[srobert96]

Just because I do not know how Washington and Dallas do it, does not mean I do not know that they do. Look at the players they have and how they get them and tell me how the Ravens can do it if you feel like it. I also know that just becasue I want it to happen does not mean that it will, it just suprises me that so many fans seem so convinced the Ravens are always out of cap space even though they always seem to let more good players go then most teams and find more diamond in the rough type players than any other team.

I can't believe you have hijacked a second thread with this Peppers nonsense. Yes the Ravens could make it work financially by letting Suggs go. That is about the only way they could open up enough money to sign Peppers.

The Redskins and Cowboys do not circumvent the cap. Name 1 big signing by Dallas this year??? 0. They lost a great player in Canty because they could not fit him under the cap. The Ravens choose to sign their own players over big free agency signings. I suggest you go to the Washington Post site and do a little research. The Redskins consistently lose good young players because they do not have cap room. They have more holes than swiss cheese. They are rolling out an old aging Oline. They don't have any DEs. Their LBs are horrible. All of their money is tied up in a few big contracts.

[B-more Ravor]

Who else on NE and Dallas makes a lot of money you ask? Seymore, Mayo was a top 10 pick.

LOL - Mayo was in the 1st year of his rookie deal, his cap number was $1.8M.

Seymour's was $6.8M. The Ravens had 3 players with higher cap numbers - and substantially so.


Dallas has nothing but 1st and 2nd round picks or big money free agents accross the board.

I think I already addressed that - they are all on the 1st or 2nd years of their deals, so their cap numbers are still relatively low. The largest cap number they had last year was in the $6M range.


There is a huge gap in actuall payed out money between the Ravens and the teams at the top. I don't care how they explain it, I want premium players, at least one Julius Peppers and possibly a #1 WR. Make it work.


LOL - yes, you don't care and you clearly don't understand, but why bother? Why let understand of the facts get in the way, right?

Look, last year, because they were so tight against the cap, the Ravens didn't sign any players to big money. Those numbers you have posted show the total money expended in that year. When you don't sign players to big deals, you don't pay out big bonuses, therefore your expenditures are down for that year. They also carried a lot of dead money last year - for JO, McNair, Mulitalo - so that was cap space that could not be used, which also lessens the total amount of money spent.

Now, since you are so good at research, go back to 2004-2007. They were top 1/2, #5, #6 and top 1/2 in total expenditures. They are willing to spend, they just do so more wisely than teams like the Skins.

[jonboy79]

And take a look at the contracts and status of their Old aging OT's. They are no longer worth NEARLY their contracts, but they are stuck with them like we are stuck with McGahee. This is waht happenns when teams try to "beat' the cap. They get beaten in the long run.

And yes, I understand what you are getting at, and that is that Snyder's payroll is higher on average then most, as in he kicks out mroe money each year and remains under the same cap number as others. He is more "creative" with deals. Also it should be noted that Washington is the Kings of the inflated contract numbers that make contracts silly, when in reality they aren't that bad.
In this current age of the cap, you can't really do that anymore like they used to with Brandon Lloyd, Archuleta, etc.

[Rayvens52]

My question is they do it constantly, why can't we do it once? Extending Suggs creates cap room, so would cutting Kelly Gregg and getting Reed to restructure, maybe Heap. The Ravens would not be locked into a lot of bad contracts, and next year is scheduled to be uncapped, but even if there is a cap, it will most likley go up and a ton of "dead money" comes off and guys like Pryce, Willy and any vet becomes that much more easy to cut.

Seriously get off this kick it is never going to happen. Why do you want this team to even be close to the Deadskins, right now they are a really bad franchise that make the wrong moves every year. You want this team to cut multiple players and shift cap numbers all over the place to pick up a guy we will never even speak to. Seriously enough is enough IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN no matter how many times you write it, and I will keep letting Ozzie be Ozzie and stay as far away from becoming a team like the deadskins as poss.

[B-more Ravor]

Why not? It seems like that money will directly be added to the mix. Also if there is no cap next year, there is no cap space issue.

Yes, if there is no cap next year, then none of these issues apply.

If there is, then a team operating as if there isn't going to be one is screwed.

[baltimore_hokie]

Don't get me wrong, at the moment Jackson is my second choice for likely to be available players... He is a monster that would fit well. A lot of it has to do with the fact that I think Pryce and Banna or gregg, followed by Edwards, McKinney, et al, is a MUCH better depthchart top to bottom then Heap, Smith, Syp... I think Pryce is CLEARLY playing at a higher level then Heap, And there are some bodies behind that are not hateful.
A lot of this stems from the fact that I think Heap is a merely AVERAGE starter at this point is his career, perhaps not even quite that.

i think heap's catching a little too much shit about what he had him do last year. we needed help on the edges because or tackles were kind of weak, so he blocked like a man man and didn't compete with other players at his position in a key category--catches. well, ngata spends his games clogging up the middle for the run game and doesn't make the pro bowl because he can't compete with the key category at his position--sacks. does that make him any less valuable?? HELL NO. with heap and LJ, we can at least get by for another year or two and still be above average. the main problem for our offense was stretching the field out to let our receivers and running backs play in space. as good of a player as pettigrew is, he does that bring that ability into play with his mediocre speed. so while i like him alot, i do not see a dire need for him (mostly because i see last year for heap as being valuable in a different way). either way, we can snag a faster, better receiving tight end in a later round if we would like to address that. i would be extremely disappointed if we don't come out of the first day of the draft addressing our needs at WR and youth on the DL.

to address another point that you made, our DL is solid but they are almost all getting old as crap. bannan-29, gregg-32, pryce-33, with ngata being the only young stud. the others are not yet old, but none of them are pass rushers. our depth at pass rushing DL is shot behind pryce, who is 33. with syp being a steady blocker, heap serviceable still, and lj a receiving threat that is much better than one 33 year old guy in my opinion. i do agree with you on alot of what you said, but i think the need to infuse some youth into that DL and have a guy in jackson that could slide inside on passing downs and get after the passer would be a bigger impact than a good tight end. keeping enough defensive lineman in there to bring energy all season is key, see the giants getting another guy to bolster their front-seven after they wore down last year. if we draft pettgirew, we have 4 TE's leaving sypniewski out. he is serviceable for what we ask him to do and is cheap, but adding another guy in the DL rotation would provide major dividends in the playoff run we hopefully will make.

[Jeremiah W]

i think heap's catching a little too much shit about what he had him do last year. we needed help on the edges because or tackles were kind of weak, so he blocked like a man man and didn't compete with other players at his position in a key category--catches. well, ngata spends his games clogging up the middle for the run game and doesn't make the pro bowl because he can't compete with the key category at his position--sacks. does that make him any less valuable?? HELL NO. with heap and LJ, we can at least get by for another year or two and still be above average. the main problem for our offense was stretching the field out to let our receivers and running backs play in space. as good of a player as pettigrew is, he does that bring that ability into play with his mediocre speed. so while i like him alot, i do not see a dire need for him (mostly because i see last year for heap as being valuable in a different way). either way, we can snag a faster, better receiving tight end in a later round if we would like to address that. i would be extremely disappointed if we don't come out of the first day of the draft addressing our needs at WR and youth on the DL.

to address another point that you made, our DL is solid but they are almost all getting old as crap. bannan-29, gregg-32, pryce-33, with ngata being the only young stud. the others are not yet old, but none of them are pass rushers. our depth at pass rushing DL is shot behind pryce, who is 33. with syp being a steady blocker, heap serviceable still, and lj a receiving threat that is much better than one 33 year old guy in my opinion. i do agree with you on alot of what you said, but i think the need to infuse some youth into that DL and have a guy in jackson that could slide inside on passing downs and get after the passer would be a bigger impact than a good tight end.

How does Peppers not solve your problem? He is only 29 and not injured like Pryce was, so it is safe to assume that he should have 3 or 4 prime seasons left in him before he begins to decline.

I get the fact that we are up against the cap right now, but because we have already almost completed the purge of big dollar vet contracts, and because the cap is very possibly going away next season, and because the Ravens were not a rebuilding team last year but a legit SB contender, I think Oz should go back to the 2000 type formula when he brought in the vet D line as the final peice to the puzzle.

From strictly a football perspective, how does Peppers opposite Suggs not make our D better accross the board, and closer to the 2006 look with Peppers as an upgrade over AD.

[baltimore_hokie]

How does Peppers not solve your problem? He is only 29 and not injured like Pryce was, so it is safe to assume that he should have 3 or 4 prime seasons left in him before he begins to decline.

I get the fact that we are up against the cap right now, but because we have already almost completed the purge of big dollar vet contracts, and because the cap is very possibly going away next season, and because the Ravens were not a rebuilding team last year but a legit SB contender, I think Oz should go back to the 2000 type formula when he brought in the vet D line as the final peice to the puzzle.

From strictly a football perspective, how does Peppers opposite Suggs not make our D better accross the board, and closer to the 2006 look with Peppers as an upgrade over AD.

because it would most likely eliminate our ability to make any other moves to bolster our offense or other positions of need. look, dude. you have a point that he's a stud and would make our D better, but there is one guy like you on every site for every team in the NFL. no one here is going to agree with you because they fundamentally would rather see us field a good offense FOR ONCE. i saw our dominant defense last year allow 30-some points to the giants, and peppers may help with that some so that we only allow 24, but we need an offense that can score that, or more, consistently to become great. there's no point in arguing anymore, just chalk it up to a difference in opinion and let Oz do work. but please, i'm sick of arguing about this and your productivity at work has got to be suffering from this argument. let's agree to disagree and just see what freakin happens.

[ravenjoer]

There are alot of valid points here but remember trust Ozzie and teams like Shittsburgh ALWAYS use's the draft to build teams and over the years they have been very competitive(they still suck) I believe if we don't trade up it will be best avaliable i think the need's are DE and WR and OL

[Jeremiah W]

because it would most likely eliminate our ability to make any other moves to bolster our offense or other positions of need. look, dude. you have a point that he's a stud and would make our D better, but there is one guy like you on every site for every team in the NFL. no one here is going to agree with you because they fundamentally would rather see us field a good offense FOR ONCE. there's no point in arguing anymore, just chalk it up to a difference in opinion and let Oz do work. but please, i'm sick of arguing about this and your productivity at work has got to be suffering from this argument. let's agree to disagree and just see what freakin happens.

Forget that, I am half way there to convincing you. He not only makes our defense better he makes our offense better. He would play some redzone TE, and his 4 or 5 forced fumbles a year puts teh O in better position. His abuse of the other QB takes points off the board. The Panthers have not had a whole lot else on defense, but when he has been paired with talent in the front 4, they have made solid playoff runs.

The Steelers and Giants the past 2 years proved that bookend pass rushers can and will beat perfect passing attacks. The Ravens have proven that stopping the run is not enough but when we pressure QBs we get pick 6.

The Steelers beat us 3 times last year basically the same way. Late in the game, we did not have enough pass rush to stop the good teams from driving. Peppers puts a stop to that. Suggs on one side, him on the other with the rest of the rotation would give us a much better coverage and pressure package than Pittsburgh, and there is a good chance that the DPPG not only goes down, the OPPG will most likley go up from more picks, closer to 2006 than last year.

The Ravens O is basically in place. QB, RB, LT, LG, C, RG, RT WR 1, 2 and 3, a couple young guys in the mix. You may not like all we have there but there is a lot of youth and for the most part that is what we are going with on O.
The D is getting old accross the D line. Peppers fixes that for a while.

Price and recruiting him seem to be the only obstacles to me. I do not see a lot of money commited to players or a lot of holes, so getting past this one season of cap jail should not be too hard on the long term roster building plan.

[purplepoe]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpraJYnbVtE

Long overdue.

PP

[Dave Lap]

I think selecting another Guard early would simply mean there is no option to re-sign Grubbs, and I don't see the point in trading one for the other.

What if you think the guy will be noticeably better than Grubbs? I think you take the best guy and then figure out what to do with the roster.

And all I'm saying is that it's better to draft someone that has a chance to be really successful in the NFL even if it's not a high need position, than to draft a player of lesser caliber. Look at how many teams passed on Ray Lewis, for example because they "didn't need a linebacker." Then look who they selected instead.

We can argue the whole best player available thing for days and still not finish it because every draft, every player is different, every year is different.

The draft is too complex to come up with one simple formula to be successful. I realize that sometimes it can be better to go for need. Most of the time though, I think the BPA is the way to go.

[jonboy79]

i think heap's catching a little too much shit about what he had him do last year. we needed help on the edges because or tackles were kind of weak, so he blocked like a man man and didn't compete with other players at his position in a key category--catches. well, ngata spends his games clogging up the middle for the run game and doesn't make the pro bowl because he can't compete with the key category at his position--sacks. does that make him any less valuable?? HELL NO. with heap and LJ, we can at least get by for another year or two and still be above average. the main problem for our offense was stretching the field out to let our receivers and running backs play in space. as good of a player as pettigrew is, he does that bring that ability into play with his mediocre speed. so while i like him alot, i do not see a dire need for him (mostly because i see last year for heap as being valuable in a different way). either way, we can snag a faster, better receiving tight end in a later round if we would like to address that. i would be extremely disappointed if we don't come out of the first day of the draft addressing our needs at WR and youth on the DL.

to address another point that you made, our DL is solid but they are almost all getting old as crap. bannan-29, gregg-32, pryce-33, with ngata being the only young stud. the others are not yet old, but none of them are pass rushers. our depth at pass rushing DL is shot behind pryce, who is 33. with syp being a steady blocker, heap serviceable still, and lj a receiving threat that is much better than one 33 year old guy in my opinion. i do agree with you on alot of what you said, but i think the need to infuse some youth into that DL and have a guy in jackson that could slide inside on passing downs and get after the passer would be a bigger impact than a good tight end. keeping enough defensive lineman in there to bring energy all season is key, see the giants getting another guy to bolster their front-seven after they wore down last year. if we draft pettgirew, we have 4 TE's leaving sypniewski out. he is serviceable for what we ask him to do and is cheap, but adding another guy in the DL rotation would provide major dividends in the playoff run we hopefully will make.


Great points all around in there.
We are right on fundamentally with the DL. I think our two biggest needs are passrusher and pass catcher, follwed by CB(pass coverer?). I would be very happy with Tyson Jackson or Hood in the first, or Jarron Gilbert in the second.

Our main point of difference is Heap and Pettigrew. I haven't thought Heap was elite for at least three years. I understand he blocked more then average last year, and I also know he improved appreciably in that area in doing so. But he still is an average at best blocker(run and pass), he's slowing down, his hands are beginning to fail, and he is absolutely worthless after the catch. He can go up and get it with the best of them, but thaT's really the best he has left. I honestly think he would excell in Wilcox's old role as #2 TE, brought in primarily as a red zone receiver. He hasn't been the beacon of health either.
LJ Smith is essentially a carbon copy of that. A bit worse in every way.
Q Syp, was a solid two way threat albeit unspectacular. That was before he tore his knee up.

I'd envision Pettigrew starting before the end of the year. He would be an immediate upgrade in the run game(aka our bread and butter) and would provide a big strong target in the middle of the field. He absolutely is not a speed deamon vertical threat, but I'm nto sure that's a TE's most important responsibility. He should take some stress off Mason, and allow Clayton and Dwill to have better matchups downfield. I think all things being equal, if you have a player downfield with the ball, you'd rather it be a faster guy.

[baltimore_hokie]

Great points all around in there.
We are right on fundamentally with the DL. I think our two biggest needs are passrusher and pass catcher, follwed by CB(pass coverer?). I would be very happy with Tyson Jackson or Hood in the first, or Jarron Gilbert in the second.

Our main point of difference is Heap and Pettigrew. I haven't thought Heap was elite for at least three years. I understand he blocked more then average last year, and I also know he improved appreciably in that area in doing so. But he still is an average at best blocker(run and pass), he's slowing down, his hands are beginning to fail, and he is absolutely worthless after the catch. He can go up and get it with the best of them, but thaT's really the best he has left. I honestly think he would excell in Wilcox's old role as #2 TE, brought in primarily as a red zone receiver. He hasn't been the beacon of health either.
LJ Smith is essentially a carbon copy of that. A bit worse in every way.
Q Syp, was a solid two way threat albeit unspectacular. That was before he tore his knee up.

I'd envision Pettigrew starting before the end of the year. He would be an immediate upgrade in the run game(aka our bread and butter) and would provide a big strong target in the middle of the field. He absolutely is not a speed deamon vertical threat, but I'm nto sure that's a TE's most important responsibility. He should take some stress off Mason, and allow Clayton and Dwill to have better matchups downfield. I think all things being equal, if you have a player downfield with the ball, you'd rather it be a faster guy.


pettigrew-jarron gilbert first day and i'm fat and happy!

[jonboy79]

pettigrew-jarron gilbert first day and i'm fat and happy!

Me too.

[Jeremiah W]

pettigrew-jarron gilbert first day and i'm fat and happy!

Peppers and Cook or the TE class is deep in the 3rd. No need for Hot Sauce if we get the big Habenjero. Pettigrew dropping is looking less likley with all his private work outs from 11 to 21 range, and word is out on Gilbert, even 1st round pick talk. DL and DE players that pass the measurables get taken high. Even with Mike Mamula and the like and a lot of monster workout Dts that could not play, guys that put on the freak show get a shot. TE is such an injury prone position I would prefer to add cheaper than first round depth over a 1st round TE even like Heap or Pettigrew. It is becoming like RB where it is netter to have 3 good ones than one great one, and 2 scrubs.

[darb72]

I think Brandon Cook, the TE from South Carolina, would be an intresting 2nd rounder. He has the speed to split the seams and the body control to make difficult questions.

Now for the first round pick I think pretty much everybody is fair game outside of QB. I keep seeing mocks that have Larengitus from Ohio State falling to us and I think we'd take him if he were there, even with Ray and the kid we drafted out of Miami last year. On the other hand I wouldn't be surprised to see a player like Sanchez fall to us and we trade that pick for extras in the second round. Players fall all the time and this year I just have this feeling it's going to be the guy from USC.

[ravenwoman]

If the BPA at 26 is not worthy of that spot, the Ravens will trade down.

Ozzie said years ago, he will never trade a number 1 draft pick, and I believe him.

As far as Peppers goes, if the Ravens wanted him, the deal would have been done by now. JP is too expensive. Right player, right price. JP is not the right price.

Other than QB, K, P all other positions are on the table for the first round.

[Jeremiah W]

If the BPA at 26 is not worthy of that spot, the Ravens will trade down.

Ozzie said years ago, he will never trade a number 1 draft pick, and I believe him.

As far as Peppers goes, if the Ravens wanted him, the deal would have been done by now. JP is too expensive. Right player, right price. JP is not the right price.

Other than QB, K, P all other positions are on the table for the first round.

Not the case with Pep. He has not signed his tender and like Suggs last year could drag it out into camp because he loses leverage as soon as he signs and he made it clear he wants out. Does not want the money from them and has turned down Haynesworth money. He has 5 teams he wants to play for, and I think the Ravens are near the top of the list, maybe below NE and Dallas. It is hard to imagine him taking less of a contract than Haynesworth and the Panthers should hold out for full franchise player comp if they lose him, so it is a simple situation that will require a complicated solution.

I think Oz does value the 1st round picks too much and sometimes the best way to fill a need is to trade them for the BPA, but this year I like about 5 players rated in the 20s. Alex Mack is one of them, DHB, Nicks, Jackson maybe Britt.

[B-more Ravor]

He has 5 teams he wants to play for, and I think the Ravens are near the top of the list, maybe below NE and Dallas.


Based on what?!?!?? Your dreams?!??!? Seriously, how about a little basis for that belief.......

From what I saw, he had 5 teams listed and only one - which was subsequently disclosed to be NE - was in the AFC. So, there goes your "Ravens are near the top of the list".

BTW, if there are 5 teams and the Ravens are below NE and Dallas, then they are 3rd of 5, which is right in the middle and not "near the top of the list". :grbac:

[psuasskicker]

Jesus f*cking Christ JW will you let the Peppers thing die already? We get it...you think we should trade for him. Everyone else here is at peace with the reality that it won't happen. Let it go.

- C -

[Jeremiah W]

Based on what?!?!?? Your dreams?!??!? Seriously, how about a little basis for that belief.......

From what I saw, he had 5 teams listed and only one - which was subsequently disclosed to be NE - was in the AFC. So, there goes your "Ravens are near the top of the list".

BTW, if there are 5 teams and the Ravens are below NE and Dallas, then they are 3rd of 5, which is right in the middle and not "near the top of the list". :grbac:

I don't know why you are so stubborn against what would be the best trade in franchise history. Better than getting McCrarry and better than drafting Boulware.

Peppers has not said exactly what the 5 teams are, only acknowledged the Pats and Boys were 2 of them. 3-4 teams that were pretty good, high profile but did not make the playoffs, and have QBs and WRs that will be the franchise player no matter how well he plays. The Boys do not have more cap room, and the Pats should not but somehow do.

If you are a defensive superstar, who would you rather play for? If you are a WR you may want to play with Brady, but if you are a DE or Cb, you may want to play with Ray and Reed, next to Nagta and opposite Sizzle facing a lot of RTs one on one from a 2 point stance. If I were him, I would want to play the Adalius Thomas role in the Ravens D, over the same role in NE.

One player like Peppers, Merriman, Ware, Harrison or Jarrett Allen can make an entire defense a lot better. Look at how bad SD got on D when they lost Lights, or how KC went right into the toilet without Allen on the edge and when he went to the Vikes, they became a contender and had a much more complete D. What a healthy Jason Taylor did for the Dolphin D is another good example, or we could look back at the fall off on the Ravens D when AD left. C Mac and Rolle were not as shut down, and likley to get picks without pressure on the opposite side of Sizz, and all teh back up Cbs we thought were OK prospects could not cover grass without the sick pass rush we had in 2006. Indy is dangerous on D no matter who else they have out there as long as 93, 98 and 21 are out there healthy.

The Ravens are close to having the best roster in the NFL, but if they ever want to get past Indy, NE or the Steelers, they will need a nasty 4 man pass rush. Those teams have too many weapons to blitz them, and the Qbs are too good to give time in the pocket. Suggs on one side, Peppers on the other, Nagta in the middle, and the Ravens will have the best D in the NFL for the next 3 or 4 years at least, and will be able to give any of those high powered offenses a lot of problems.

Peppers may not be the right price, but he is the right player. if we can't get him, we need to get some player like him to compliment and eventually replace Pryce.

[Jeremiah W]

Jesus f*cking Christ JW will you let the Peppers thing die already? We get it...you think we should trade for him. Everyone else here is at peace with the reality that it won't happen. Let it go.

- C -

It would be perfect, and until it is not possible I will pursue it.

Look at how many players improve when they come to this defense and how many decline at about the same rate out of the Ravens roster. Pryce had his best season ever in 2006, and put us in position to win a Sb a lot more than McNair did. Peppers will do the same thing. He will make Suggs and Nagta unblockable, or he will get 20 sacks if they continue to double them. He forces fumbles and knocks QBs off thier game and personally pushes the Panthers D to producing points.

If you are against this move, you do not understand how much of a difference maker he is, and what he would do for us. It is not like I would suggest giving up this kind of money and draft picks for anyone other than maybe Mario Williams, Ware or Merriman, but those guys are all under contract right now, Peppers is not. He is available.

[B-more Ravor]

Peppers has not said exactly what the 5 teams are, only acknowledged the Pats and Boys were 2 of them.

There have been reports that sources have disclosed that only 1 AFC is on the list - the Pats. No, that is not the Gospel, but it's far closer to Peppers than your wishing that the Ravens are on the list.


Peppers may not be the right price, but he is the right player. if we can't get him, we need to get some player like him to compliment and eventually replace Pryce.

He's far from the right price. He's also 29. He's certainly likely to be good for a couple of years, but he could be a cap killer after that. They can not afford to play two top of the market contracts for pass rushers, while needing to extend Ngata in the future (and that too is going to be top of the market). That would be 3 huge deals for the defensive front 7, which would leave them less to use elsewhere to improve the team.

As I've said before, the most successful teams (NE, Pitts, Indy, Tenn, Philly) draft well, retain their own players and supplement on occasion with a FA. Needless to say, teams that play fantasy football like the Skins, Raiders and Cowboys are not on that list.


It would be perfect, and until it is not possible I will pursue it.



And, you'll be the only one pursuing it.

BTW, weren't you also adamently convinced - despite all evidence to the contrary - that the Ravens would NOT release CMac? :grbac:

[Jeremiah W]

There have been reports that sources have disclosed that only 1 AFC is on the list - the Pats. No, that is not the Gospel, but it's far closer to Peppers than your wishing that the Ravens are on the list.



He's far from the right price. He's also 29. He's certainly likely to be good for a couple of years, but he could be a cap killer after that. They can not afford to play two top of the market contracts for pass rushers, while needing to extend Ngata in the future (and that too is going to be top of the market). That would be 3 huge deals for the defensive front 7, which would leave them less to use elsewhere to improve the team.

As I've said before, the most successful teams (NE, Pitts, Indy, Tenn, Philly) draft well, retain their own players and supplement on occasion with a FA. Needless to say, teams that play fantasy football like the Skins, Raiders and Cowboys are not on that list.




And, you'll be the only one pursuing it.

BTW, weren't you also adamently convinced - despite all evidence to the contrary - that the Ravens would NOT release CMac? :grbac:

No I just thought they would try to get him to take a pay cut and may be open to bringing him back at a huge discount, but the best way to do that would be to cut him and like Ray let him find his real open market value, and get a closer look at what football life as a Bungle or Clown may look like.

Indy is the perfect example of why I think we need Peppers and so is NE. Those teams get a lot of credit for the consistant contender status, most of it goes to the Qb and WRs, while what actually made those teams special was the dynamic duo of edge rushers.
Mathis and Freeney going crazy off the edge is what makes Indy so tough to come back on and powered the only Sb run. When NE won the 3 rings, they had a healthy MgGinnis and Vrable with Seymore and Colvin and another 1st round DE Green grinding on O lines with 4 and 5 man pressure.

The Titans are another classic example of the front 4 setting the tone for the entire D. They figured out they could fill in at DB and LB as long as they have the fearsome front 4 causing havok. When they lost Kearse the first time, they fell off a bit and guess who gave him a huge contract, Philly.

The Eagles D is always good because of the deep and talented front 4. No team in the NFL seems to draft and pick up more pass rushing D line players.

Then there is the Steelers who like to draft 1st and 2nd round DE and OLB players even when they have probowl players there. the took Timmons and Woodley 1 and 2 when they already had a sick LB core and DL. The Steeler D formula is 2 great edge rushers, and has been for a very long time.

The best Raven D featured McCrary and Boulware on the edge with Adams and Burnett getting interior push. Or 2006 with AD in the mix and the punt return look to the pick 6.

The top 3 ranked defenses were in the final 4 of the playoffs, and I think that in order to get past the Steelers, we need to have the better defense.

[B-more Ravor]

1. CMac is not coming back. Never was, never will.

2. As to the rest, you clearly missed my point.

[Stealthbirds80]

Jesus f*cking Christ JW will you let the Peppers thing die already? We get it...you think we should trade for him. Everyone else here is at peace with the reality that it won't happen. Let it go.

- C -

Too funny. I think that we every position except QB is open for a first round selection and if the best player is not available at 26 OZ will trade down. He may trade up is there is someone they are hot on that may not make it to 26.

[psuasskicker]

You guys know another reason why no one's gonna spend big on him? He wants a giant monsterous contract. And the 2011 season very well may not happen (read the thread I just started).

Think about it. What free agents got giantor-mega-deals this off-season?
Haynesworth, signed by one of the few moron owners in this league.
Asomugha, but he only signed a three year deal that has an escape after two.
Who else? There hasn't been gigantic money thrown around this off-season. It's highly likely that's because the owners are preparing for a stoppage in 2011, or at least don't want to risk a mega-bucks deal with a real possibility that season doesn't happen.

It's very possible that's the reason Ozzie would be fine holding Suggs with the franchise tag this year and then again next. What incentive does he have to sign the kid to a massive deal if 2011 isn't gonna happen?

- C -

[Andon]

Why not? It seems like that money will directly be added to the mix. Also if there is no cap next year, there is no cap space issue. !

[darb72]

This thread has been ruined by Jeremiah. When the 'tard starts talking about something besides Peppers y'all be sure to let me know cause he's on the ignore list for being way to annoying.

EDIT: Trying to stay somewhat on topic after the ruination of this thread, from what I've read Brian Robiskie has managed to move himself into the back portion of round one. Coaches son with speed, hands and size.

[Jeremiah W]

This thread has been ruined by Jeremiah. When the 'tard starts talking about something besides Peppers y'all be sure to let me know cause he's on the ignore list for being way to annoying.

EDIT: Trying to stay somewhat on topic after the ruination of this thread, from what I've read Brian Robiskie has managed to move himself into the back portion of round one. Coaches son with speed, hands and size.

What a Jenna Wolf.

[52decleetzu]

How did this thread go from BPA to Julius Peppers?

I was going to comment but I have nothing to say on Peppers,any draft questions let me know.

[Jeremiah W]

How did this thread go from BPA to Julius Peppers?

I was going to comment but I have nothing to say on Peppers,any draft questions let me know.

What kind of late 2nd rounders can rush the QB from the right side for us and maybe push through double teams to hold the point vs the run?

I kind of like Sidbury, and before they blew up Barwin and Gilbert were projected toward that area. Johnson from GT was also a 2nd round target but he is now looked at as late 1st.

Based on the workouts it seems like they are targeting WR/ CB and OL in the 1st, but we do need to add a big body pass rusher, unless Dwan Edwards is healthy and ready to live up to his draft status. I am concerned if we wait until round 2 for that kind of guy we will get a slow to develop guy like Edwards. Rather than a 3-4 DT I think we need a guy who could come in and dominate the pass rush from the right side better than Woodley, like Peppers. Preferably cheaper.

[52decleetzu]

What kind of late 2nd rounders can rush the QB from the right side for us and maybe push through double teams to hold the point vs the run?

I kind of like Sidbury, and before they blew up Barwin and Gilbert were projected toward that area. Johnson from GT was also a 2nd round target but he is now looked at as late 1st.

Based on the workouts it seems like they are targeting WR/ CB and OL in the 1st, but we do need to add a big body pass rusher, unless Dwan Edwards is healthy and ready to live up to his draft status. I am concerned if we wait until round 2 for that kind of guy we will get a slow to develop guy like Edwards. Rather than a 3-4 DT I think we need a guy who could come in and dominate the pass rush from the right side better than Woodley, like Peppers. Preferably cheaper.


Late 2nd rounders on the Dline arent looking too promising,there is usually a run on those guys before that.First round would be where you could pick a guy like that up,but 2nd is not looking good at all.

I have Clint Sintim (3-4 OLB)at about 39 or so,but after that it looks rather bleak.If Sintim somehow falls he would be a perfect option but that is very unlikely...but possible.There is a dropoff after him.

Robert Ayers(45.9 avg)-More of a 4-3 DE,but could possibly play in a 3-4 if he put on some weight or dropped some to play linebacker.Thats an if though.

Gilbert (63.9 average)-with his stock rising he could be long gone by our 2nd round pick.

Paul Kruger(66.3 avg)-Really a 4-3 end,very inexperienced and doesnt get off the ball that quickly.Need some polishing and dont know where he would play in our defense.

Sidbury-(80.0 avg)-again more of a 4-3 DE,dont know how he would fit in our defense.He lacks some of the athleticism to play standing up in a 3-4,more suited to have his hand in the dirt all the time.No way he could play 3-4 DE.

Cody Brown(90.3 avg)-projects near the end of round 3.Extremely productive (like 45 TFL and 24 sacks career,only guy who had more sacks coming out is Sintim with 27) and a perfect fit for a 3-4 OLB as he is a bit light to play with his hand down every play(6'2 245 ). I lke this guy....a lot.... especially if he is there in the 3rd round.He needs to get a little stronger and learn how to get off blocks but he could develop into a hell of a linebacker.

[Jeremiah W]

Sidbury reminds me of Mathis. Maybe undersized but has the pass rush skills to make a difference. Not sure he would be better than Barnes or McClain though.

[baltimore_hokie]

Late 2nd rounders on the Dline arent looking too promising,there is usually a run on those guys before that.First round would be where you could pick a guy like that up,but 2nd is not looking good at all.

I have Clint Sintim (3-4 OLB)at about 39 or so,but after that it looks rather bleak.If Sintim somehow falls he would be a perfect option but that is very unlikely...but possible.There is a dropoff after him.

Robert Ayers(45.9 avg)-More of a 4-3 DE,but could possibly play in a 3-4 if he put on some weight or dropped some to play linebacker.Thats an if though.

Gilbert (63.9 average)-with his stock rising he could be long gone by our 2nd round pick.

Paul Kruger(66.3 avg)-Really a 4-3 end,very inexperienced and doesnt get off the ball that quickly.Need some polishing and dont know where he would play in our defense.

Sidbury-(80.0 avg)-again more of a 4-3 DE,dont know how he would fit in our defense.He lacks some of the athleticism to play standing up in a 3-4,more suited to have his hand in the dirt all the time.No way he could play 3-4 DE.

Cody Brown(90.3 avg)-projects near the end of round 3.Extremely productive (like 45 TFL and 24 sacks career,only guy who had more sacks coming out is Sintim with 27) and a perfect fit for a 3-4 OLB as he is a bit light to play with his hand down every play(6'2 245 ). I lke this guy....a lot.... especially if he is there in the 3rd round.He needs to get a little stronger and learn how to get off blocks but he could develop into a hell of a linebacker.


robert ayers will go much higher than 46, as will jarron gilbert. ayers could be the best 4-3 DE in the draft and i think someone will take him in the first, first few picks of the second if not. we've already talked about gilbert ad nauseam on these threads and he will likely go in the same range.