Hakeem Nicks

[psuasskicker]

Okay, after much researching and looking and digging, I am officially on the Hakeem Nicks bandwagon (http://oblongspheroid.blogspot.com/2009/03/prospect-evaluation-on-field-producer.html).

- C -

[Jeremiah W]

He is awsome. I think he is by far the safest pick at Wr in the draft. Months ago I was saying he was the next Irvin and would look great in Purple. As much as I want to get DHB, he would be the pick if they were both on the board.

The chances are he will be gone, and if it comes down to picking a WR at 26 it will most likley be DHB vs Britt and possibly Harvin.

How can you totaly discount the system and Qb play factor in DHB's stats? You also never add the rushing yardage, and ignore the fact that he can block, can go accross the middle and take a hit, and really is a good bit bigger than the busty type names you like to compare him to. He is over 6-2, close to 6-3, and is over 210 pounds. Maybe he will not be better than Bryant Johnson, but he is the same size and a good bit faster. There is that chance that he becomes the next Randy Moss, because of all the guys in the NFL close to the same size, Moss is one of the few with comparable speed.

[RAVENOUS52]

Welcome aboard.

[psuasskicker]

How can you totaly discount the system and Qb play factor in DHB's stats? You also never add the rushing yardage, and ignore the fact that he can block, can go accross the middle and take a hit, and really is a good bit bigger than the busty type names you like to compare him to. He is over 6-2, close to 6-3, and is over 210 pounds. Maybe he will not be better than Bryant Johnson, but he is the same size and a good bit faster. There is that chance that he becomes the next Randy Moss, because of all the guys in the NFL close to the same size, Moss is one of the few with comparable speed.

I discount the system and QB play factor in DHB's stats because it shouldn't matter. I've already given several examples of guys with sucky QBs in run-first offenses, but Nicks is a perfect example. North Carolina had fewer passing attempts & completions than MD and more rushing attempts than MD. Their rushing production was actually worse. Once Tate went down early in the year with injury, Nicks was quite literally the ONLY player on the offense that was a productive weapon for them. Yet Nicks more than doubled DHB's production on the field.

This is exactly the point I have been trying to make over and over again in our argument over why I don't like DHB, and now why I'm developing an unhealthy man-crush on Nicks. Great players make great things happen. It's not like Turner just ignored DHB. He had 45% more catches than the next highest guy on the team.

But his production is just killing it for me. He was the stand-out star on that offensive unit. He simply didn't play like it. Nicks was the stand-out star on that Carolina unit. But he played lights out.

FWIW, I know you get the difference between that and that you're on board that Nicks is the better prospect.

- C -

BTW, Moss has two inches on DHB. He also was one of the best receiving prospects in the last 20 years coming out, but his work ethic questions caused him to plummet (another example of on-field monster, questionable "other" though no questions from his workouts). He's not a good comparison with DHB.

[Jeremiah W]

I discount the system and QB play factor in DHB's stats because it shouldn't matter. I've already given several examples of guys with sucky QBs in run-first offenses, but Nicks is a perfect example. North Carolina had fewer passing attempts & completions than MD and more rushing attempts than MD. Their rushing production was actually worse. Once Tate went down early in the year with injury, Nicks was quite literally the ONLY player on the offense that was a productive weapon for them. Yet Nicks more than doubled DHB's production on the field.

This is exactly the point I have been trying to make over and over again in our argument over why I don't like DHB, and now why I'm developing an unhealthy man-crush on Nicks. Great players make great things happen. It's not like Turner just ignored DHB. He had 45% more catches than the next highest guy on the team.

But his production is just killing it for me. He was the stand-out star on that offensive unit. He simply didn't play like it. Nicks was the stand-out star on that Carolina unit. But he played lights out.

FWIW, I know you get the difference between that and that you're on board that Nicks is the better prospect.

- C -

BTW, Moss has two inches on DHB. He also was one of the best receiving prospects in the last 20 years coming out, but his work ethic questions caused him to plummet (another example of on-field monster, questionable "other" though no questions from his workouts). He's not a good comparison with DHB.

Nicks did not dominate every game either. He had a few multiple TD games, but UNC did not get 50 points a game or anything.

DHB has 2 inches on Troy Williamson and at least 10 pounds, and ran a faster 40 and is a good bit stronger, tougher and most likley smarter. He may not be as good as Moss, but he may not be as bad as Troy Williamson, and I would settle for somewhere in the middle for the 26th pick.

[RAVENOUS52]

Dude, I'm gonna fucking go out of my mind if you two don't quit acting like Will Ferrell and John C. Reilly!!

http://www.collider.com/uploads/imageGallery/Step_Brothers/step_brothers_movie_image_will_ferrell_and_john_c._reilly__4_.jpg

I thought this was a Hakeem Nicks thread?

[Jeremiah W]

Dude, I'm gonna fucking go out of my mind if you two don't quit acting like Will Ferrell and John C. Reilly!!

http://www.collider.com/uploads/imageGallery/Step_Brothers/step_brothers_movie_image_will_ferrell_and_john_c._reilly__4_.jpg

I thought this was a Hakeem Nicks thread?

:)
I guess we could use a new topic but draft debate is superior speculation to regular football chatter.

I had a long back and forth battle with Manita about Reggie Yohan Sebastian Bush being a very dumb top pick, and Super Mario as the no brainer lock of the decade #1 pick. I kept trying to tell her Reggie would have to be Barry Sanders, and he aint, no way no how, to be worth the money the top pick is going to get. Meanwhile Mario Williams deal looks like a bit of a bargain in the wake of the "Freeney Money" era.

This far down the board we are just guessing about player likley to be long gone anyway.

Stafford is very Bollerish looking to me. He throws better, and has more like a Favre like arm, but he has a lot of Boller and Favre in his game.

The #1 pick should be the fat tackle from Alabama. He may look terrible running around with his shirt off, but he looks nasty running around the grid iron with a helmet and pads on. He looks like a giant defensive tackle playing LT. The Big boy has burst, and as much upside as backside.

Nicks is one of those guys that in hidsight should have gone higer than he does, but there is still a chance he is the top Wr drafted. Injury issues as well as private workouts could push him up where he most likley deserves.

Every year the ACC players get less attention during hte season, but on draft day they tend to leapfrog the higher touted prospects.

[camdenyard]

I heard him being interviewed on Sirius. I hope he plays better than he talks.

[psuasskicker]

Dude, I'm gonna fucking go out of my mind if you two don't quit acting like Will Ferrell and John C. Reilly!!

No way dude. Later I'm gonna rub my balls all over his drum set.


Nicks did not dominate every game either. He had a few multiple TD games, but UNC did not get 50 points a game or anything.

Nick's worst game was one of two:
vs. VaTech where he had 4 rec for 51 yards
vs. Duke where he had 3 rec for 38 yds, but he had a TD

He scored TDs in 7 of his 13 games. Multiple TDs in three of them. Less than fifty receiving yards only once, five with more than 100 yards. No games with fewer than 3 catches, six with more than 5 catches. #12 in receiving yards in the country, despite being on the #74 passing offense. Of the 11 in front of him, none were on a passing O worse than #43, six were on top 10 passing offenses.

He was a dominant WR for the entire year, that if playing on a team with a passing attack even half decent likely would have resulted in nearly incomprehensible numbers. 1,200+ yards and 12 TDs are already great. Could you imagine what he would have done with Florida? Oklahoma? Ok State? Texas? Probably nothing worse than 1,500 and 15.

Honestly though it's better that he didn't because he's coming out of the NCAA better polished since NC runs a pro-style offense. Nicks is the guy I think that most likely can have an impact day 1.


Stafford is very Bollerish looking to me. He throws better, and has more like a Favre like arm, but he has a lot of Boller and Favre in his game.

The #1 pick should be the fat tackle from Alabama. He may look terrible running around with his shirt off, but he looks nasty running around the grid iron with a helmet and pads on. He looks like a giant defensive tackle playing LT. The Big boy has burst, and as much upside as backside.

Agree completely on Stafford. Honestly I think he's gonna drop like a rock. On the blog I linked at the top, one of my friends did a post on him. One of the points made is that other than Detroit, there's absolutely no buzz about anyone else taking him. I think in my mock draft I'm going to have Detroit picking him. At #20.

Don't agree on the #1 overall though. "Should" be has got to be Curry. The only prospect in the past decade that I can remember with a better profile is Calvin Johnson. Curry has nothing negative you can say about him, and tremendous upside. He's as close to a lock to be a strong or better NFL player as you can find in the draft, Detroit needs help everywhere, and so I don't think if I were GM I'd be able to turn that down. OTs historically have the lowest first round bust rate. But a guy like Curry comes along once in an NFL generation. I legitimately think we could (could) be looking at the next Ray Lewis, and think he's nothing less than the next Zach Thomas.

The other guy that looks like a legit #1 overall to me is Baylor's OT Smith. Dude is an all around beast. Det may not have much at QB, but they could lock down the OT position for the next decade, which is never a bad idea.

- C -

[baltimore_hokie]

UNC did have three NFL-quality WR's on that team (before Tate went down) to help spread the D out for Nicks. He also made many of his catches on long drag routes across the field, requiring a good OL to keep the QB protected for him to get open. I like the guy a lot, but these are the two main knocks I've heard about him.

I was also visiting a buddy down in Chapel Hill recently and ended up in a gas station at like 2 in the morning next to a kid decked out in UNC Football gear. Being a drunk dumbass, I had to ask the guy if Nicks would really be worth our first pick at 26 in the draft. The kid is a DB and said he played a good bit against him in practice and that he is a beast. He also mentioned his hands are like catchers mitts (which I've read somewhere else also). He said that after Nicks caught the third TD in that bowl game against WVU he he said to this kid, "Shit, man. After that last catch I'M GOIN' PRO BABY!!". Sounds like a little bit of a thug, not that he wouldn't fit in our locker room.

[Jeremiah W]

No way dude. Later I'm gonna rub my balls all over his drum set.



Nick's worst game was one of two:
vs. VaTech where he had 4 rec for 51 yards
vs. Duke where he had 3 rec for 38 yds, but he had a TD

He scored TDs in 7 of his 13 games. Multiple TDs in three of them. Less than fifty receiving yards only once, five with more than 100 yards. No games with fewer than 3 catches, six with more than 5 catches. #12 in receiving yards in the country, despite being on the #74 passing offense. Of the 11 in front of him, none were on a passing O worse than #43, six were on top 10 passing offenses.

He was a dominant WR for the entire year, that if playing on a team with a passing attack even half decent likely would have resulted in nearly incomprehensible numbers. 1,200+ yards and 12 TDs are already great. Could you imagine what he would have done with Florida? Oklahoma? Ok State? Texas? Probably nothing worse than 1,500 and 15.

Honestly though it's better that he didn't because he's coming out of the NCAA better polished since NC runs a pro-style offense. Nicks is the guy I think that most likely can have an impact day 1.



Agree completely on Stafford. Honestly I think he's gonna drop like a rock. On the blog I linked at the top, one of my friends did a post on him. One of the points made is that other than Detroit, there's absolutely no buzz about anyone else taking him. I think in my mock draft I'm going to have Detroit picking him. At #20.

Don't agree on the #1 overall though. "Should" be has got to be Curry. The only prospect in the past decade that I can remember with a better profile is Calvin Johnson. Curry has nothing negative you can say about him, and tremendous upside. He's as close to a lock to be a strong or better NFL player as you can find in the draft, Detroit needs help everywhere, and so I don't think if I were GM I'd be able to turn that down. OTs historically have the lowest first round bust rate. But a guy like Curry comes along once in an NFL generation. I legitimately think we could (could) be looking at the next Ray Lewis, and think he's nothing less than the next Zach Thomas.

The other guy that looks like a legit #1 overall to me is Baylor's OT Smith. Dude is an all around beast. Det may not have much at QB, but they could lock down the OT position for the next decade, which is never a bad idea.

- C -

There was an article on NFL.com linking LT potential to arm length, and Andre Smith had it and the guy from Baylor did not. He will at least be a beasty RT though.

I like Curry a lot as well, but I am not sure #1 is the right value for a MB. It is more likley he is the next Pat Willis or DeMeco Ryans, maybe Brian Urlacher, than he is the next Ray Lewis. Maybe it is just me, but I think the NFL will be waiting for the next Ral like they have been waiting for the next Jim Brown, or the NBA is waiting for the next Jordan.

The economcs of the #1 overall pick make it tough to take anything other than a T, QB or DE. Even Calvin Johnson, Andre 3000 and Larry Fitz slipped and looked as can't miss as I ever saw coming out.

[psuasskicker]

UNC did have three NFL-quality WR's on that team (before Tate went down) to help spread the D out for Nicks. He also made many of his catches on long drag routes across the field, requiring a good OL to keep the QB protected for him to get open. I like the guy a lot, but these are the two main knocks I've heard about him.

Tate was the only real quality receiver on the field, but he went down pretty early and some of Nicks' biggest games (including the WVU game) were after that. One piece I read said he was double covered more often than any other ACC receiver after Tate's injury, though I have no idea how or even if someone could be tracking that in a data driven way.

His speed is a big question, but I've seen that "question" so many times it makes me sick to my stomach. 4.49 and 4.51 aren't terrible 40 times. They aren't fast, but we're not talking linebacker slow here. Plus, and I'll never stop going back to him, Anquan Boldin ran a 4.71 and I don't think there's a person who watches the NFL that would call him "slow." Nicks isn't a burner. he's not likely to end up being a deep threat for us. But that's no reason not to draft him. There's one team in the NFL that might not want to draft a young Derrick Mason onto their team tomorrow...Arizona. And even they might.


There was an article on NFL.com linking LT potential to arm length, and Andre Smith had it and the guy from Baylor did not. He will at least be a beasty RT though.

I like Curry a lot as well, but I am not sure #1 is the right value for a MB. It is more likley he is the next Pat Willis or DeMeco Ryans, maybe Brian Urlacher, than he is the next Ray Lewis. Maybe it is just me, but I think the NFL will be waiting for the next Ral like they have been waiting for the next Jim Brown, or the NBA is waiting for the next Jordan.

The economcs of the #1 overall pick make it tough to take anything other than a T, QB or DE. Even Calvin Johnson, Andre 3000 and Larry Fitz slipped and looked as can't miss as I ever saw coming out.

Andre Smith has bigger questions around him than arm length. Jason Smith doesn't have many other questions around him. Det just took an OT in the 1st last year...Gossider Cherilius or something like that, don't feel like looking it up. He's probably locked into the right side. J Smith can play LT without a problem. He's a good, safe pick for #1 overall and honestly is the way I think Detroit will wind up going.

I agree that Curry isn't likely the next Ray Lewis, just saying it's possible he could be. The thing about it is, there doesn't seem to me to be much of a "bust" potential. And when you're a team like Detroit, who has needs everywhere, you need to make sure you're hitting on all your top picks. They can't afford to keep swing-and-a-miss-ing on Mike Williams and Charles Rogers type players at the top of the first round. They don't need Calvin Johnson home runs per say, but they do need to make sure they're adding quality guys that can play, and Curry fits both...the most likely to not be a bust as well as massive upside.

The other guys you named fit those descriptions pretty well, and it's always strange to me that they don't get taken #1 overall. What's worth noting is that the #1 pick in those three years were of course quarterbacks. The #2 picks were an OT and another WR. Honestly it's hard for me to fault anyone picking an OT over a WR given the bust likelihood factor. And while Andre Johnson was a great WR prospect, I have to say Charles Rogers looked like a better WR prospect to me.

Even Fitz had some questions around him, though. The thing is, it's exceptionally rare that you see a guy coming into the draft with absolutely NOTHING negative to say about him. There are literally two guys like that, that I can remember in the last ten years. Calvin Johnson was one. He was the complete package at WR. Size, speed, perfect route runner, strength, great blocker, incredible hands, smart, productive...he had it all. Aaron Curry is the other. Technique, speed, strength, ferocity, leadership, mistake-free...another total package player.

Can't miss prospects like these guys, in my mind, almost HAVE to be #1 overall picks. You can't afford to miss at the very top of the first round, particularly these days when those contracts can be crippling. If you've got the chance to take a guy that is a virtual lock to be a great player, I think you've basically got to take him almost no matter what. The exception might be a team like Arizona facing Calvin Johnson at #1 overall...but even then I think you still have to think long and hard about turning a guy like that down.

With that said, quarterbacks are usually the pick. The problem is, it's such a critical position, and such a hard one to fill with a good player, that if you get a good one, they're ALWAYS worth the #1 overall pick. So I guess it's at least easy to understand why a team would pick a QB #1 overall...

- C -

[RAVENOUS52]

No way dude. Later I'm gonna rub my balls all over his drum set.
:laugh: :rolling: The funniest movie I've seen in at least a year. The Fucking Catalina Wine Mixer, dude! POW!!


Nick's worst game was one of two:
vs. VaTech where he had 4 rec for 51 yards
vs. Duke where he had 3 rec for 38 yds, but he had a TD

He scored TDs in 7 of his 13 games. Multiple TDs in three of them. Less than fifty receiving yards only once, five with more than 100 yards. No games with fewer than 3 catches, six with more than 5 catches. #12 in receiving yards in the country, despite being on the #74 passing offense. Of the 11 in front of him, none were on a passing O worse than #43, six were on top 10 passing offenses.

He was a dominant WR for the entire year, that if playing on a team with a passing attack even half decent likely would have resulted in nearly incomprehensible numbers. 1,200+ yards and 12 TDs are already great. Could you imagine what he would have done with Florida? Oklahoma? Ok State? Texas? Probably nothing worse than 1,500 and 15.

Honestly though it's better that he didn't because he's coming out of the NCAA better polished since NC runs a pro-style offense. Nicks is the guy I think that most likely can have an impact day 1.

I've been a Nicks fan since about the midway point of the ACC season. It was the game where he almost single-handedly shit on the Boston College team something terrible.

The kid is just scratching the surface of his potential though. He's tough, has catcher's mitts for hands and that "it" factor that you can't teach, which allows guys to move to the next level and find immediate success (think Anquan Boldin), as well as a nose for the ball and the endzone.

What's not to love?

[TTRaven]

DHB has 2 inches on Troy Williamson and at least 10 pounds, and ran a faster 40 and is a good bit stronger, tougher and most likley smarter.

Troy Williamson is 6-1 203 lbs
Heyward-Bey is 6-1 5/8 210 lbs

Troy Williamson 4.32 40
Heyward-Bey 4.30 40

Also it's just flat out stupid to say that DHB is most likely smarter than Williamson. There is no way that you would know which player is smarter.

[Stealthbirds80]

I whole hardly agree with the Nicks pick. I watched his highlights minus the awesome behind the back catch he made and he seems to be the most complete wideout behind Macklin and Crabtree. I'm not sure about the quotes of down the field speed because he looks explosive enough to me. Sneaky Boldin like speed.

[shaslers]

He is awsome. I think he is by far the safest pick at Wr in the draft. Months ago I was saying he was the next Irvin and would look great in Purple. As much as I want to get DHB, he would be the pick if they were both on the board.

Hey, we agree!

[NC Raven]

He may not be as good as Moss, but he may not be as bad as Troy Williamson, and I would settle for somewhere in the middle for the 26th pick.

Ok well, that's a big "middle"there. Moss is a Hall of Famer, and Williamson is a bust.

[4G63]

Nicks is the best guy that may be available when we pick. I'd take him over DHB in a heartbeat, if both were available.

[TL24x7]

From conversations I've had with sources close to the team, I would be shocked if the Ravens take DHB. If both Hicks and DHB are on the board AND they are the highest ranked players still remaining on the Ravens draft board, Hicks will be the call.

That said, I don't believe the Ravens project DHB as a first round talent. His productivity doesn't suggest it despite his measurables and the Ravens will not be intoxicated by measurables. They want tough, smart, productive players with good character.

[Jeremiah W]

From conversations I've had with sources close to the team, I would be shocked if the Ravens take DHB. If both Hicks and DHB are on the board AND they are the highest ranked players still remaining on the Ravens draft board, Hicks will be the call.

That said, I don't believe the Ravens project DHB as a first round talent. His productivity doesn't suggest it despite his measurables and the Ravens will not be intoxicated by measurables. They want tough, smart, productive players with good character.

They are still scheduled to work him out with Flacco tomorow though right? They must have some interest in DHB and can not expect him to be available when they are scheduled to pick in the second round.

[jonboy79]

Sorry guys, as great as he is, he aint gonna be there.

Neither is Bey, Harvn and Pettigrew.
:grbac:

I wouldn't be so absolutely certain, but I think you are right. I really feel like the value at our spot is going to be in the defensive front 7.


Nicks is the best guy that may be available when we pick. I'd take him over DHB in a heartbeat, if both were available.

I have to agree.


They are still scheduled to work him out with Flacco tomorow though right? They must have some interest in DHB and can not expect him to be available when they are scheduled to pick in the second round.

Smokescreen, one way or the other....
Maybe they are planning to trade up in the second...
Maybe they think too highly of the other 31 teams and think they will all actually watch his college gamefilm, in which case he should be available in the mid 50's.

[jonboy79]

PJ was the fourth...
But Adam Terry, Dwan Edwards, and Chris Chester were all seconds.

[baltimore_hokie]

nicks scored a whopping 11 on the Wonderlic exam. haha, i guess he's a baller but definitely not a scholar.

[jonboy79]

nicks scored a whopping 11 on the Wonderlic exam. haha, i guess he's a baller but definitely not a scholar.

Ouch, I never realized that. WR's need a good FB IQ to get open. By reading the defense and knowing when to break off a route and how to find a soft spot in a zone. The Wonderlick may not directly measure FB IQ, but it's not that far off with it's basic decision making and common sensical questions.

I was far more alarmed with Vince Young's reported 6.

[baltimore_hokie]

well, harvin only got a 12 and DHB got a 14. i'm not sure if all WR's these days are retards or just these few...

[Aces2Bluff]

Meh Harvin scored a 12, Crabtree scored a 15, I dont think it plays a huge factor.

[TheExtraPoint]

The Ravens were hurt as much by a lack of healthy NFL ready bodies at the receiver position as they were by any perceived lack of talent. Imagine what this team would have looked like if Derrick Mason couldn't play through that shoulder injury for the rest of the season. The Ravens receiver situation teetered on the brink from the moment Demetrius got hurt, and especially the last six weeks and playoffs. In fact, I think if Demetrius Williams is healthy for all of 2008, it would have completely altered perception of our needs at that position.

Of course, injuries factor in to how you assess your in-house talent, and that is the primary knock on Spiderman at the moment.

But this draft in general is very short on "sure-thing" types of talent, even at the top. In fact, I'm only personally comfortable with one player in this draft, and that's Aaron Curry. After him, there are far more red-flags and "upside" players than anything else.

As for Hakeem Nicks - he's clearly more of a known quantity than Heyward-Bey and his game far more refined, but that doesn't mean he's automatically going to be a better NFL player. More liekly? Perhaps, but that's arguable. Either way, it's not very likely he'll be available at pick 26 when the Ravens select.

But I think the biggest thing people need to remind themselves about drafting a receiver is this: The earlier you do it, the riskier a proposition it becomes. And history suggests that the return on your investment, if you're even fortunate enough to get one, is years away from being realized.

FWIW, I think Percy Harvin is the best receiver fit for the Ravens for several reasons:

His game speed is tested and proven against the best competition in college football in the SEC. He possesses ELITE NFL speed, something the Ravens have never truly had, and certainly never coupled with a potentially elite quarterback before. This is no Travis Taylor, even if their 40-times suggest otherwise.Taylor was fast, Harvin is the definition of explosive.

The primary lingering question about Harvin was route-running, a question he reportedly answered affirmatively at his Pro-Day workout last week. There are durability concerns, and I'm assuming for the purposes of this post they check out OK.

But regardless of Harvin's prowess as pure wide receiver, I think it's important not to view Harvin as "just a receiver".

In fact, I think comparison's to Reggie Bush are fair in some ways. Some would argue that Reggie Bush is a bust as the second overall pick in the draft, and an average football player - and to some degree I guess I'd agree. But my disappointment in Reggie as a pure three-down running back is trumped in my eyes by his ability to impact an offense and affect a defense.

Having an explosive football player on your roster who can catch the football, and therefor hold defenses accountable even if it's as a decoy, is invaluable to and offensive coordinator, especially one as creative as Cam Cameron.

Couple these factors with Harvin's abiltiy to line up all over the field, Joe Flacco's deep accuracy, presence, and play-fake ability, and the specific talents of the other featured offensive skill position players on this roster (I'm salivating at what Ray Rice could do with Harvin garnering so much attention from opposing defenses), and I think Harvin, or a player like him, could be the missing piece.

To me, Percy Harvin can be to the Ravens what Chris Johnson was to the Titans. It's that simple. That's why he's my choice.

I can imagine a formation where Mark Clayton, Derrick Mason, and Demetrius Williams are all lined up at receiver, and Percy Harvin and Ray Rice are lined up in the backfield. I don't envy the defensive coordinator forced to try to defend that.

And with all of this said, I don't think Harvin, Nicks, OR Heyward-Bey make it to 26. And there's always Pat White in round 2.

[baltimore_hokie]

The Ravens were hurt as much by a lack of healthy NFL ready bodies at the receiver position as they were by any perceived lack of talent. Imagine what this team would have looked like if Derrick Mason couldn't play through that shoulder injury for the rest of the season. The Ravens receiver situation teetered on the brink from the moment Demetrius got hurt, and especially the last six weeks and playoffs. In fact, I think if Demetrius Williams is healthy for all of 2008, it would have completely altered perception of our needs at that position.

Of course, injuries factor in to how you assess your in-house talent, and that is the primary knock on Spiderman at the moment.

But this draft in general is very short on "sure-thing" types of talent, even at the top. In fact, I'm only personally comfortable with one player in this draft, and that's Aaron Curry. After him, there are far more red-flags and "upside" players than anything else.

As for Hakeem Nicks - he's clearly more of a known quantity than Heyward-Bey and his game far more refined, but that doesn't mean he's automatically going to be a better NFL player. More liekly? Perhaps, but that's arguable. Either way, it's not very likely he'll be available at pick 26 when the Ravens select.

But I think the biggest thing people need to remind themselves about drafting a receiver is this: The earlier you do it, the riskier a proposition it becomes. And history suggests that the return on your investment, if you're even fortunate enough to get one, is years away from being realized.

FWIW, I think Percy Harvin is the best receiver fit for the Ravens for several reasons:

His game speed is tested and proven against the best competition in college football in the SEC. He possesses ELITE NFL speed, something the Ravens have never truly had, and certainly never coupled with a potentially elite quarterback before. This is no Travis Taylor, even if their 40-times suggest otherwise.Taylor was fast, Harvin is the definition of explosive.

The primary lingering question about Harvin was route-running, a question he reportedly answered affirmatively at his Pro-Day workout last week. There are durability concerns, and I'm assuming for the purposes of this post they check out OK.

But regardless of Harvin's prowess as pure wide receiver, I think it's important not to view Harvin as "just a receiver".

In fact, I think comparison's to Reggie Bush are fair in some ways. Some would argue that Reggie Bush is a bust as the second overall pick in the draft, and an average football player - and to some degree I guess I'd agree. But my disappointment in Reggie as a pure three-down running back is trumped in my eyes by his ability to impact an offense and affect a defense.

Having an explosive football player on your roster who can catch the football, and therefor hold defenses accountable even if it's as a decoy, is invaluable to and offensive coordinator, especially one as creative as Cam Cameron.

Couple these factors with Harvin's abiltiy to line up all over the field, Joe Flacco's deep accuracy, presence, and play-fake ability, and the specific talents of the other featured offensive skill position players on this roster (I'm salivating at what Ray Rice could do with Harvin garnering so much attention from opposing defenses), and I think Harvin, or a player like him, could be the missing piece.

To me, Percy Harvin can be to the Ravens what Chris Johnson was to the Titans. It's that simple. That's why he's my choice.

I can imagine a formation where Mark Clayton, Derrick Mason, and Demetrius Williams are all lined up at receiver, and Percy Harvin and Ray Rice are lined up in the backfield. I don't envy the defensive coordinator forced to try to defend that.

And with all of this said, I don't think Harvin, Nicks, OR Heyward-Bey make it to 26. And there's always Pat White in round 2.


yikes, i think percy has bust written all over him. weak lower body has left him succeptible to injuries constantly and the wealth of talent around him has him overrated. i watched a good bit of tape on him, and while his speed is impressive i can't get another fast florida WR out of my head (travis taylor). his big plays are almost all on bubble screens and runs, and he is not a cam cameron WR. cam likes big bodies, take a look at almost every WR on san diego's roster. if nicks is still out there, we would snag him--no doubt. if he's not and the best available is harvin, i think we look at the DL or ILB. i like your comparison with chris johnson in tennessee. many said they needed to take a WR to make their offense better, but they went with CJ and it worked out pretty well for them (until the playoffs hahaaa). harvin has the big play ability and speed but he just doesn't do the things that great WR's need to do in this league when the ball is in the air. add to that he is extremely injury-prone, and i say no thanks. see dan cody...

[jonboy79]

Sorry, but PJ was a 2d rounder. Click on link and scroll down to Starks draft.
You are thinking of Jarret Johnson in the 4th. See link.

Dwan Edwards was the only big bust in the group above. Chester and Terry are still on the line and contributing.


Chester threw the block that sprung McGahee on his TD run in Dallas.

DeRon Jenkins is another bust at 2d round - so thats Cody, Pj, Dwan and Jenkins as #2 busts - big busts.


http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/football/bal-ravensdraft-gen3,0,4108443.htmlstory

Patrick Johnson... You are correct. Pj Daniels was a 4th rounder, where is he?

As shown, the second round hasn't been too kind... Let's hope Ray Rice breaks the trend.

[bmore4life]

FWIW, I think Percy Harvin is the best receiver fit for the Ravens for several reasons:

you had me until this line... he will be a bust like most UF players... and whoever said Cam doesn't like small receivers is absolutely correct. IMO we have enough little guys, we need someone with height who can help out in the red zone.

[baltimore_hokie]

you had me until this line... he will be a bust like most UF players... and whoever said Cam doesn't like small receivers is absolutely correct. IMO we have enough little guys, we need someone with height who can help out in the red zone.

well, i think we have already started that trend with our WR's much like san diego did while cam was there. take a look below at the WR's on our roster/practice squad:

Justin Harper: 6'3"
Marcus Maxwell: 6'3"
Marcus Smith: 6'1" -- average
Ernie Wheelright: 6'5"
Edward Williams: 6'4"

so basically other than the leftovers (mason and clayton) we have a bunch of bigger guys. in addition to this, i can see us adding more size through the draft with some bigger bodies. i would love to see a group of WR's like dan diego has with jacskon, floyd, and all those guys that are 6'4"+.

with that said, my pick in the first right now would be nicks. this kid is the best bet to be an immediate contributor, so if we take a WR in the first i would prefer it to be him if we stay at 26. if we have to wait til the second or third, i can definitely see us going for a guy like ramses barden or someone else that's huge.

[baltimore_hokie]

nicks scored a whopping 11 on the Wonderlic exam. haha, i guess he's a baller but definitely not a scholar.


haha, i wanted to post something to give a general bearing for the wonderlic scores we've been hearing about. i just read something that a 20 on the wonderlic is average intelligence, and 10 is the baseline for literacy. so nicks can ball, but he is basically retarded...

[Aces2Bluff]

Thanks Tony for that insight, but just a reminder.

You pal Aaron spoke to Nest 1 a month before the 08 draft.

I said if everyone and his cousin is saying Ryan will be a Raven if he falls, then it is a typical Ozzie smoke screen. its someone else.

He said that is usually correct, but you are not in the room when Oz talks about Ryan. His face lights up like a Christmas tree.

DeCosta spoke to us in July and said I can't exactly say we would have picked Ryan even if he fell because of all the work we did on Flacco.

Bingo.

Flacco was the guy Oz wanted all along.

A guy was in a restaurant and everyone was excited to see Ozzie there.

When he left someone said, Flacco please.

Oz said - hes that good huh?

More smoke screen.

If they are putting the word out that they dont like DHB, then they probably do but that is just a guess and they are putting their star QB thru a lot of trouble throwing to him on his workout for someone they refuse to be intoxicated with.

Quick question if Flacco was the one they wanted all along, why did they see what it would take to get the pick from STL?

[baltimore_hokie]

yeah, good point. so from what you've heard, is that leaning towards nicks, DHB, harvin, or the best defensive player out there?

[bmore4life]

well, i think we have already started that trend with our WR's much like san diego did while cam was there. take a look below at the WR's on our roster/practice squad:

Justin Harper: 6'3"
Marcus Maxwell: 6'3"
Marcus Smith: 6'1" -- average
Ernie Wheelright: 6'5"
Edward Williams: 6'4"

the only one to even take a snap in the NFL is Marcus Smith, who failed to get a catch. its fine to have these big guy scrubs, but we need a "go to" big guy. a high round big guy. most of those big guys are uncoordinated or poor route runners. i went to TC last season and liked what i saw from Justin Harper, but i think the rest of those guys will have to work to make the roster.

which was may whole point about Harvin in the first round. the guy is smaller then Clayton and nowhere near as tough...

given the alternatives, the only WR i would want is Nicks. (unless Maclin somehow fell) and i'm not at all sold on Nicks as a first round pick. the one thing i like about his is his hands are like catchers mitts.

[baltimore_hokie]

the only one to even take a snap in the NFL is Marcus Smith, who failed to get a catch. its fine to have these big guy scrubs, but we need a "go to" big guy. a high round big guy. most of those big guys are uncoordinated or poor route runners. i went to TC last season and liked what i saw from Justin Harper, but i think the rest of those guys will have to work to make the roster.

which was may whole point about Harvin in the first round. the guy is smaller then Clayton and nowhere near as tough...

given the alternatives, the only WR i would want is Nicks. (unless Maclin somehow fell) and i'm not at all sold on Nicks as a first round pick. the one thing i like about his is his hands are like catchers mitts.


agreed. i got to watch harper play just about every game of his college career and i think he has all the tools to be pretty damn good. he was overshadowed by eddie royal and josh morgan so he didn't get the production but I think he can come along and be a serviceable WR. i don't see any locks in the first at WR, with nicks being the closest bet to a sure thing, which is why i'd prefer to take a defensive player and then snag ramses barden in the 2nd. that may be a little early for him but he won't be around when we pick in the third.

[Stealthbirds80]

haha, i wanted to post something to give a general bearing for the wonderlic scores we've been hearing about. i just read something that a 20 on the wonderlic is average intelligence, and 10 is the baseline for literacy. so nicks can ball, but he is basically retarded...

That last line is awesome, but the kid can ball no doubt. LOL, it is like you said "awe good for him". Hilarious!

[RAVENOUS52]

We need to draft or clone the next James Lofton, whoever that is.

Dude had it all-- Size, speed, hands, instincts, heart and was a supreme route runner.

C'mon Ozzie, Poppa needs a new pair of hands!

[psuasskicker]

Speaking of which,

When Phil spoke at the Barn the day after the Dwan Edwards draft he said I see a lot of jerseys here with names of RLewis, JLewis, Heap and Ogden.

We had no idea they would be the mega stars they became when we drafted them. We hoped they would be we had no guarantees.

The draft is a crap shoot.

When someone asked my opinion on who we would get, the other point nobody mentions is whom Ozzie grades where and nobody knows that but Oz. Not even his wife knows.

So I can give you a bunch of names I like but none of them might have the grade for that spot - even the big ones you see. Another reason Ozzie traded down last year was because the draft was so weak, there wasnt anyone left in the top 10 he wanted after Ryan. Even in the 2d round when we needed a CB, there were none left on the board he wanted so he traded for Fabian Wash. There was nobody who made his grade as CB in any round - not even the first.

And again, what a brilliant move because look what an experienced back meant to us and Oz said he would have drafted Fabian if Mark Clayton had been off the board in that draft. He ended up getting both.

So we just dont know his grades. As someone posted, it looks now like a D-lineman or LB might be the best value at our spot.

Does he give the grade to Laurenatis-sp of Ohio St or Sintum of VA? Maybe he still takes DJ Moore, CB even though we got Foxworth because DJ has the highest grade and that would add dept and give us one of the best secondaries in the game. We can guess all we want but who does Oz like?



So if Bey or Nicks were to fall, would they even have Ozzies grade. He gives a grade to that round so the receiver better have that grade.

Like someone just said above, maybe none of these guys are first round material. Ozzie knows - and knows it now.

Some say Pettigrew might fall like Heap. Well, Heap re-defined drafting TEs in the first round so Pettigrew will probably go higher than us because he can block and catch and everyone needs a TE that can do both.

At that time of Heap, teams didnt draft TEs in the first because they were mostly used as blockers. Heap was a great receiver although weak on blocking so he fell and became an All Pro and look what he did in Tenn during the POs and played hurt a lot this year fighting back spasms.

Ray fell because he was too small only to become the best MLB to ever play.

Suggs fell because he ran a poor 40 time. After his workout at ASU, Phil called Oz and said Suggs just fell to us. Thats how Oz knew Suggs was going to fall as I posted above. Thats why I think Oz wanted Suggs more than Leftwich becasue he was the BAA at the position of need.

And Suggs had the classic line in ref to his poor 40 time -

Im a football player, not a track star.


LOL.

Suggs' gift is getting by the o-line in 2 steps.

http://www.impawards.com/1997/posters/conspiracy_theory.jpg

[Stealthbirds80]

I saw today that the Ravens worked out Hey-Bey today again with Flacco. I believe either this is smoke and mirrors by Ozzie to get someone to take the kid and leave Nicks or someone else they like or just maybe they are high on Hey-Bey after all. Interesting that they are showing or not showing thier hand like this. They are after someone real bad though, but who?

[baltimore_hokie]

“You could tell he was a good athlete and a pretty big kid,” Flacco said of the former Terrapin. “He did a good job catching the ball. Our coaches tried to wear him out a little bit, and he might have gotten a little tired towards the end, but he really pushed through.”

“We wanted to see the kid really compete,” DeCosta said. “We really put him under a pretty rigorous workout for about an hour. His conditioning was good, and I was really impressed that he really attacked the workout.

“He caught the ball well, he ran crisp routes. I thought he was really coachable, and he responded really well to our guys.”

[jonboy79]

This could be a smokescreen, as DHB is pretty accessible to the Raven's. so it's not like it's hard to scoop up Flacco in Columbia on your way down to College Park.

That said, not that it can be proven, but there is no way they wouldn't have taken Ryan last year if he fell, DeCo was saving face, Flacco was clearly their second choice, just as Harbaugh was. I think it worked out pretty well on both accounts.

[psuasskicker]

I dunno. Flacco turned out better than Ryan with less talent - no Roddy White. He nearly matched Ryan stat for stat with an old one armed receiver.

Um, no he didn't. Ryan very clearly had the better year. Roddy White is better than Mason, but not by a lot, and the rest of the talent is fairly even across the board. Ryan had a higher completion %, more yards, higher YPA, more TDs and fewer INTs. His stats for his one post-season game were better than Joe's three, he certainly didn't choke. Don't fool yourself into thinking Flacco had the better season just cause he plays for your team...he didn't.

It's amusing to me how everything is a smoke-screen. If we don't take him, we never really wanted him and just wanted everyone else to think we did. If we never get a shot at him, we never really wanted him and our ruse worked to get someone else to take him earlier than us and leave our guy on the board. If we take him, it's cause we wanted him all along but made them think we didn't want him cause it was all just a fake. The DHB workout was a smokescreen of a smokescreen of a smokescreen. We make you think we think you think we want him, but really we don't want him...or doooooo we??? :229031_confused2:

What the hell? We'll probably work out a lot of different guys in the next couple weeks. It's our first round pick. It's an important one. And we're not gonna fall in love with one guy. Who knows if that guy will still be there or not. You work out a bunch to get a good idea who they all are and what they can do for you, and pick the best guy on your board when it's your turn (or move up/down as appropriate).

- C -

[Jeremiah W]

Um, no he didn't. Ryan very clearly had the better year. Roddy White is better than Mason, but not by a lot, and the rest of the talent is fairly even across the board. Ryan had a higher completion %, more yards, higher YPA, more TDs and fewer INTs. His stats for his one post-season game were better than Joe's three, he certainly didn't choke. Don't fool yourself into thinking Flacco had the better season just cause he plays for your team...he didn't.

- C -

Ryan played a much softer regular season schedule. He was teh starter from day one, and had a much more explosive and productive skill group around him. Roddy White is better than Mason and Jenkins is bigger and better than Clayton. Turner was a beast and his backup was better than Rice and Willis combined.

Joe had to play the Steelers twice including his first road start and most of the top 15 defenses.

[srobert96]

[QUOTE=psuasskicker;138015]Um, no he didn't. Ryan very clearly had the better year. Roddy White is better than Mason, but not by a lot, and the rest of the talent is fairly even across the board. Ryan had a higher completion %, more yards, higher YPA, more TDs and fewer INTs. His stats for his one post-season game were better than Joe's three, he certainly didn't choke. Don't fool yourself into thinking Flacco had the better season just cause he plays for your team...he didn't.


A couple of things. Yes Ryan did have the better stats but he was also in a much better situation. Roddy White is head and shoulders better than Mason. Roddy is better than Mason was in his prime. Roddy White also put up similar numbers the year prior to Ryan.

The Ravens played the best defenses in the league.

Pitt #1 - 2 reg 1 Post
Phil #3 - 1 Reg
Was #4 - 1 Reg
NYG #5 - 1 Reg
Ten #7 - 1 Reg 1 Post
Dal #8 - 1 Reg
Indy # 11 - 1 Reg
Cincy# 12 - 2 Reg
Miami #15 - 1 Reg 1 Post

ATL
min #6 - 1 Reg
TB #9 - 2 Reg


7 of the Ravens games were against top 10 defenses. 12 of their 16 games were against the top 15.

ATL played 3 games against top 15 defenses. They also played 4 games against 5 worse defenses in the league. Den, STL, KC, Det. Add in NO(2), Oak and SD which are in the bottom 10 of the league. Half of their games were played against teams in the bottom 10 of defense.

Flacco also had to deal with injuries along the Oline. Gaither being a first year starter at LT in only his 2nd year. Starting RG going down for the year with an injury. McGahee not being himself for the entire season after having surgery at the beginning of training camp. Derrick Mason being old an banged up. Losing Demetrius Williams before the season. Only having 1 healthy TE. It also does not help a Qbs stats playing with the #2 defense.

Ryan vs TB - 50% completion rate. 175 ypg 0 Tds and 4 Ints.
Ryan vs Min - 54% 134 yards 1 TD 0 Int.

Stats can be misleading. I am not saying that Flacco is going to be better over the long term but to compare the seasons by stats does not show the entire story.

[Jeremiah W]

:iagree:
[QUOTE=psuasskicker;138015]Um, no he didn't. Ryan very clearly had the better year. Roddy White is better than Mason, but not by a lot, and the rest of the talent is fairly even across the board. Ryan had a higher completion %, more yards, higher YPA, more TDs and fewer INTs. His stats for his one post-season game were better than Joe's three, he certainly didn't choke. Don't fool yourself into thinking Flacco had the better season just cause he plays for your team...he didn't.


A couple of things. Yes Ryan did have the better stats but he was also in a much better situation. Roddy White is head and shoulders better than Mason. Roddy is better than Mason was in his prime. Roddy White also put up similar numbers the year prior to Ryan.

The Ravens played the best defenses in the league.

Pitt #1 - 2 reg 1 Post
Phil #3 - 1 Reg
Was #4 - 1 Reg
NYG #5 - 1 Reg
Ten #7 - 1 Reg 1 Post
Dal #8 - 1 Reg
Indy # 11 - 1 Reg
Cincy# 12 - 2 Reg
Miami #15 - 1 Reg 1 Post

ATL
min #6 - 1 Reg
TB #9 - 2 Reg


7 of the Ravens games were against top 10 defenses. 12 of their 16 games were against the top 15.

ATL played 3 games against top 15 defenses. They also played 4 games against 5 worse defenses in the league. Den, STL, KC, Det. Add in NO(2), Oak and SD which are in the bottom 10 of the league. Half of their games were played against teams in the bottom 10 of defense.

Flacco also had to deal with injuries along the Oline. Gaither being a first year starter at LT in only his 2nd year. Starting RG going down for the year with an injury. McGahee not being himself for the entire season after having surgery at the beginning of training camp. Derrick Mason being old an banged up. Losing Demetrius Williams before the season. Only having 1 healthy TE. It also does not help a Qbs stats playing with the #2 defense.

Ryan vs TB - 50% completion rate. 175 ypg 0 Tds and 4 Ints.
Ryan vs Min - 54% 134 yards 1 TD 0 Int.

Stats can be misleading. I am not saying that Flacco is going to be better over the long term but to compare the seasons by stats does not show the entire story.

That was what I was trying to say without breaking it down. Nice post.

[psuasskicker]

Argue it however you want, Ryan still had a better year and overall was better than Flacco, and that's frankly not really an arguable point. Everyone outside of Baltimore will tell you the same.

In the future, Flacco may wind up being better than Ryan. In 2008, Ryan was better than Flacco.

- C -

[Jeremiah W]

Argue it however you want, Ryan still had a better year and overall was better than Flacco, and that's frankly not really an arguable point. Everyone outside of Baltimore will tell you the same.

In the future, Flacco may wind up being better than Ryan. In 2008, Ryan was better than Flacco.

- C -

Wrong. Flacco won 2 playoff games. The first rookie to ever do so. QBs are judged more on playoff wins than stats by most of the national media. Ryan may have had more stats and attention in the regular season, but what Joe did in the playoffs more than made up the gap in what they may have done for the entire season.

You can have your opinion, and even find some people who agree, but it does not make it right or give you the authority to say what "Everyone outside of Baltimore" will tell you.

[psuasskicker]

Feel free to live in your fantasy land if you want, but Flacco didn't win those playoff games, the Ravens did; and Ryan didn't lose his, the Falcons did. Ryan was better in every measurable category, and he was better just watching him play. End of story.

- C -

[effo5231]

Ryan and Flacco is going to turn into the next Manning vs Brady if we're all lucky.

Ryan has the numbers, Flacco has the undefinable winning mojo.

Both are very good young QBs and its arrogant to try to argue that you can prove one is head and shoulders better than the other.

You can show Ryan has better numbers, but an entire city has spent the last decade plus watching an elite defense struggle to carry a crummy offense and then saw that turn around in 1 year with a rookie throwing the rock. Yes, the O wasn't statistically dominant, but there was a feeling among the fans and voiced by several players, that Joe Cool was responsible for making this O more respectable. He is a big reason this locker room didn't face the same divides that Billick's always did.

Ryan has numbers... Joe has mojo, at the end of this decade we'll know which one is more important.

[baltimore_hokie]

Ryan and Flacco is going to turn into the next Manning vs Brady if we're all lucky.

Ryan has the numbers, Flacco has the undefinable winning mojo.

Both are very good young QBs and its arrogant to try to argue that you can prove one is head and shoulders better than the other.

You can show Ryan has better numbers, but an entire city has spent the last decade plus watching an elite defense struggle to carry a crummy offense and then saw that turn around in 1 year with a rookie throwing the rock. Yes, the O wasn't statistically dominant, but there was a feeling among the fans and voiced by several players, that Joe Cool was responsible for making this O more respectable. He is a big reason this locker room didn't face the same divides that Billick's always did.

Ryan has numbers... Joe has mojo, at the end of this decade we'll know which one is more important.

see, i have to disagree with this. joe won with a punishing running game and the number two defense in the league. there were opportunities in almost all of the games we lost this season (all 3 against shittsburgh) where joe could have lead a drive to put the game away. he failed every time. we lost every time. i don't see the game-winning mojo that big jen has in flacco yet, and hopefully i will this season.

ANYWAY, before this thread gets hijacked anymore, hakeem nicks is apparently out of shape.

One NFL scout opined that Hakeem Nicks has "got to have a weight problem" after he showed up heavy to North Carolina's Pro Day.

"He looked like a fat tight end not a lean receiver," the scout said. "This is the most important few months of his life and he gains a ton of weight. I don’t get it. Many scouts and coaches went away very disappointed." Profootballtalk hears that Nicks was 16 pounds heavier than his 212-pound Combine measurement, but has already shed most of the extra weight.



i don't know if this will affect his stock much, but i do not see nicks going to us in many mock drafts at all prior to this. i have seen him as high as 17 and as low as early second round...

[Jeremiah W]

see, i have to disagree with this. joe won with a punishing running game and the number two defense in the league. there were opportunities in almost all of the games we lost this season (all 3 against shittsburgh) where joe could have lead a drive to put the game away. he failed every time. we lost every time. i don't see the game-winning mojo that big jen has in flacco yet, and hopefully i will this season.

ANYWAY, before this thread gets hijacked anymore, hakeem nicks is apparently out of shape.

One NFL scout opined that Hakeem Nicks has "got to have a weight problem" after he showed up heavy to North Carolina's Pro Day.

"He looked like a fat tight end not a lean receiver," the scout said. "This is the most important few months of his life and he gains a ton of weight. I don’t get it. Many scouts and coaches went away very disappointed." Profootballtalk hears that Nicks was 16 pounds heavier than his 212-pound Combine measurement, but has already shed most of the extra weight.



i don't know if this will affect his stock much, but i do not see nicks going to us in many mock drafts at all prior to this. i have seen him as high as 17 and as low as early second round...

It is not a good time to be putting on pounds of fat. I think with this and the low test score his stock is dropping fast. He may still go as high as the teens, but he is going to have to prove himself in private workouts to stay in the 1st when he seemed like a lock as the #3 Wr at least last week.

As far as the Falcons they not only had a great running back and younger Lorenzo Neal type Ovie McFullback, They had 2 healthy veteran feature backs in there all year splitting 8 man fronts. They also had a suspect defense that kepth the QB throwing the ball in the 4th quarter while Joe was just handing off and letting the run game finish off teams the defense dominated. Stats are easy to spin that is why playoff wins tend to trump stats in a who is better discussions involving QBs.

[Aces2Bluff]

yea but based on the report he lost most of that weight....

Willis showed up to camp fat, Jamal was fat one year in camp... Im not worried about it as long as when it comes game time he is at peak performance.

[Jeremiah W]

yea but based on the report he lost most of that weight....

Willis showed up to camp fat, Jamal was fat one year in camp... Im not worried about it as long as when it comes game time he is at peak performance.

It is one thing to get while you have a contract and your job is secure, it is another thig when you are trying to get drafted as high as possible. Like the Andre Smith thing, it is not so much that he is out of shape as when.

[52decleetzu]

He pulled his hamstring,couldnt do any cardio for 3 weeks and he gained some weight...I dont see the big deal.

Just as easily as he gained it it can come back off if he hits the gym every day,which Im sure he will.Its not like he said f working out he got hurt...big difference.

[Jeremiah W]

He pulled his hamstring,couldnt do any cardio for 3 weeks and he gained some weight...I dont see the big deal.

Just as easily as he gained it it can come back off if he hits the gym every day,which Im sure he will.Its not like he said f working out he got hurt...big difference.

True, but still 15 pounds in 3 weeks. he must have been eating dounuts every day. He could not do any workouts, but he did not have to go off diet and how fat would he get in 2 months if he turns an ankle or something?

[jonboy79]

True, but still 15 pounds in 3 weeks. he must have been eating dounuts every day. He could not do any workouts, but he did not have to go off diet and how fat would he get in 2 months if he turns an ankle or something?

Do you remember during the Olympics? Do you remember the special on how much Michael Phelps ate? Scale that down some, but the point is, high level athletes that are working out often eat a LOT of food.
He tweaked his hammy at the combine and was told to stay off it to try and be healthy for his proday. His lifestyle went from working out hard for the combine to sedintary overnight. Do you think his diet changed overnight like that?

[jonboy79]

They said that Phelps ate something like over 10,000 calories pr day or something like that but he spends 12 hrs pr day in the pool swimming and loses it right away. Besides, he has a very fast matabolism rate.

You never saw any weight on him.

Follow this line of thinking, don't ya think he gained a few pounds in the first few weeks after the Olympics when he stopped training? I'd be surprised if he gained less then 15 pounds in his first three weeks after the Olympics.

Slightly differnt, but similar, many MMA fighters will gain up to 15 pounds in the 24 hours between weigh ins and the fight itself.

[Stealthbirds80]

Great post and point, but dont forget. Bey is down the road.

Ozzie always brings in a few guys for workouts before the draft. All teams do.

He still might bring in Nicks, pettigrew and Harvn but if he doesnt, you could be correct.

How did Bey look catching from Joe?

I heard he looked great and they worked him hard too. They got some input from Flacco as well and his take on Hey-Bey. Pretty awesome they did this. It is on the Ravens site I believe.

[Stealthbirds80]

Damn - For those of us that like Nicks, read this.

He has gained weight during the off season while unable to work out due to an injury.

Reports say he looks like a fat TE instead of a lean WR.

:grbac: :thumbdown:

http://www.profootballtalk.com/2009/03/24/hakeem-nicks-packs-on-the-pounds/

I saw that last night. Not sure what to make of it, but that is alot of weight in that little bit of time. He also wasn't working out, but that means he is holding off weight by do so. It's almost like to maintain he physique he has to work out instead when most players use working out to improve. He should just bulk up and make it muscle unless that kills what speed and explosiveness that he has.

[RAVENOUS52]

TRAP, the only way you'd cut 2 minutes off of your mile time is if you drove faster...:rolling:

Where do you come up with this stuff, dude?:229031_confused2:

[52decleetzu]

TRAP, the only way you'd cut 2 minutes off of your mile time is if you drove faster...:rolling:

Where do you come up with this stuff, dude?:229031_confused2:

If you are completely out of shape and run the mile in like 9 minutes(or more) you could cut 2 minutes off that through working out regularly.

I doubt he ran a 6 minute mile and cut it down to 4 minutes.