Jarron Gilbert in the First

[baltimore_hokie]

this guy looks like a complete beast and has first round talent. here's his write-up from nfl.com

"The 2008 WAC Co-Defensive Player of the Year -- with an eye-popping 22 tackles for loss -- Gilbert was characterized by some as a product of the Spartans' aggressive defense until, that is, he proved to be arguably the most dominant presence at the East-West Shrine Game. The question for scouts now isn't whether Gilbert can play, but at which position to utilize his unique combination of size and athletic ability. Gilbert signed with San Jose State as a 240-pound defensive end in 2004. He added over 40 pounds since and has the frame to add even more. ... The son of former New Orleans Saints' offensive tackle Daren Gilbert, Jarron has incredible athleticism for his size and could be just scratching the surface of his potential.

Positives: Rare athleticism for a player of his size. ... Versatile defender with experience at defensive tackle and defensive end. ... Good size potential. ... Naturally large man with room for plenty of additional muscle mass. ... Good initial quickness off the snap. ... Flashes the functional upper-body strength to disengage from blockers. ... Surprising balance for his height. ... Can break down in space and make the secure tackle. ... At least adequate closing speed for a player his size. ... Flashes some explosiveness as a hitter. ... Long arms and capable of batting down passes and potentially kicks. ... Often battled two or three blockers as a senior. ... Helped himself with a strong week of practice at the East-West Shrine Game. ... Ascending talent -- might be just scratching the surface of his potential.

Negatives: Bit of a "tweener." ... Struggles with leverage inside and might lack the burst off the snap and flexibility to flank the tackle and close effectively as a defensive end. ... Too often allows blockers to get into his chest. ... Inconsistent getting his hands up in the passing lanes. ... Questionable level of competition. ... A better raw athlete than football player. ... Some maturity concerns. ... Might be considered a one-year wonder after a breakout senior season."

dude jumps out of a pool that is 3.5 ft deep
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXDSPbZ_OUw

tearing up shrine game practices
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwJrEOtk41M



this guy basically has the athleticism of a 3-4 OLB, but has the size and strength of a DE, maybe a NT. he looks extremely explosive and is climbing up draft boards closer to Tyson Jackson (who is weaker, less explosive, and has less moves). i know he hasn't played against the best competition, but the guy has been doubled and tripled all year. he is exactly the kind of versatile, freakish athlete that would absolutely shine in our system. i like him.

[psuasskicker]

I think you misspelled "third"...you seem to have accidentally spelled it "first."

- C -

[awalt]

IMHO he is way too light for NT position, and his weaknesses translate to trouble against the run. His size works against him in the run, he is so tall it's much easier for an offensive lineman to get under his pads because they can get lower, quicker. But what a physique for a DE.

That said, he seems like a great DE/rush LB prospect, but I am not sure he lasts to the end of the round 1 - Kiper has him in his top 5 at his position.

If he does last and we don't take him, it's a good bet the Steelers would. So many teams need a solid DE, and he does have the size for that in the 4-3, I just don't see him lasting to us.

[baltimore_hokie]

I think you misspelled "third"...you seem to have accidentally spelled it "first."

- C -

yeah, you're right douchebag. what's the knock on this guy, small school? yeah, we saw last year that first rounders from small schools don't work out too well...

[claxkeeper]

Why would we pick a NT with our first round pick? It would be one thing if BJ fell to us in which case you take the best player (not saying it will happen) however why take this guy in the first? It is reaching for a possion that we already have an all pro at. I know who he is, I have seen him, he's nice but that doesnt mean we should reach for him in the first.

[Jeremiah W]

The practice video is very impressive. The workout stuff matters, but you can see his athletic abilty while mauling bigger looking guys. He looks like a 1st round pick to me, I have at least heard of him and athletic D linemen always get taken high, he could be the next Dewayne Robertson, or the next Kevin Williams or Tommie Harris.

[TheExtraPoint]

I think everyone perceives WR and CB as this team's primary needs, and it's hard to argue that the Ravens couldn't use an infusion of young talent at those positions given the state of the roster as of today.

But I expect Nicks, Harvin, and Heyward-Bey (in my order of preference) to all be gone by the time the Ravens select. Nicks I'm virtually certain will go before the Ravens pick, he's way too good to get passed on by that many receiver-needy teams. And I'm not sure the value is there at pick 26 to take a flier on a guy like Alphonso Smith or Sean Smith when there are simply better players likely to be available. As we all know, drafting solely based on need is a risky, usually losing proposition in the NFL.

The good news is that the draft is seven rounds long, and the Ravens will have five more chances to find the right value for a receiver and corner that make this team better, along with other potential need areas like RB, OL, and DE/DT.

I also firmly believe the Ravens pass-rush is perhaps its most under-the-radar weakness at the moment. We get nothing in that department from the solid but totally unspectacular Jarret Johnson, who I believe is a replaceable/trade-able part. And while I'm very high on Jameel McClain, and Tavares Gooden and Antwan Barnes have considerable potential, none have proven enough as of yet to warrant an immediate promotion without competition.

If anything has been made clear by the last two Super Bowl winners, it's how vital a consistently ferocious pass rush is, and I believe that sometimes means being able to generate pressure without the benefit of simple confusion, too. The Giants of 2007 and Steelers of 2008 didn't need to send DBs to get pressure. The Rex Ryan led Ravens' defense did. That sort of highlights the difference between a good and great pass-rush in my eyes.

That's why I'd target a hybrid outside linebacker/defensive end with pick 26 if things break down as I stated above.

Two players immediately jump to mind that could be available when the Ravens are on the clock:

A personal favorite of mine is Cincinnati's Connor Barwin. Likely an NFL OLB/DE, Barwin also has a background both as a TE and also as a member of the Bearcats' basketball team. His athleticism, explosiveness, and effort are evident, and are all qualities that will lend themselves to success at the NFL level. He's a quick learner, a smart football player with an excellent feel for the game, and has yet to play his best football - not even close. He's also a special teams contributor, and could even potentially see time on offense, considering our coaching staff's willingness to use defensive players on offense, though that's more situational than anything else.

http://media.charlotteobserver.com/smedia/2009/01/02/09/964-SPORTS_FBC-ORANGEBOWL_42_FL.standalone.prod_affiliate.138.JPG

Barwin's skill set reminds me a great deal of another former Raven - Adalius Thomas. In fact, in a chat earlier this week, I asked NFL.com's Gil Brandt about Barwin and he agreed with that comparison, and the Ravens as a great fit. Gil doesn't run the Ravens war room obviously, but IMO he has a better feel for this process and draft eligible players than most analysts out there. I was happy to see he agreed with my comparison.

For Barwin, there will be a learning curve having only played defense for what I believe was one season. But in that short time, he's made himself a clear-cut first day selection, and I think at 26 represents very good value given his considerable natural talent.

Another player I really like for the Ravens is Larry English from Northern Illinois. English draws comparisons to another up-and-coming NFL star - Squeelers' OLB/DE Lamar Woodley, as another one of those hybrid outside defenders. He is a gamer with excellent pass rush ability and seems to consistently give maximum effort whistle to whistle. I love the way he uses his hands, a quality that should help him adjust, shed blocks, and make plays at the next level. Most importantly IMO, he's a very strong tackler. English is very explosive off the edge, and I think he'd step in to the Ravens defense and be Bart Scott's equal on day one, if not an upgrade to Scott in the pass-rush department. That's no knock on Bart, just a testament to what kind of NFL player English could be.

English is a really impressive player, and I believe makes the Ravens defense more unpredictable, and in turn more dangerous by his presence alone.

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/catch_all/nfl_image/larry_english_WIDE.jpg

The caveat with English is the learning curve that will take place adjusting to the outside linebacker position at the NFL level. Much like Terrell Suggs' NFL beginnings, English has to become comfortable with dropping into coverage with more fluidity, technique and most importantly decisiveness, which comes with a considerable but manageable learning curve for a guy who made his name at the collegiate level rushing the passer. He's smart enough to do it, and I have supreme confidence in the Ravens coaching staff at this stage of the game.

I really do believe that these two players are perfect fits here. Both will aid what I consider to be an over-rated pass rush, allowing for elevated competition on the roster and a trickle down effect that should make our secondary more effective, our defense as a whole more dominant, and in turn our offense more confident in their ability to take chances and subsequently hit on big plays.

That's my take.

So if the three receivers being most discussed are gone, these are two guys I hope the Ravens are keeping an eye on.

[Jeremiah W]

As much as I like the WRs, there is a good reason none were taken in the 1st last year. The O and D line players do not get all the attention until draft day. The Ravens are very good at getting the right player at the right price in the draft.
I would love to see the ravens upgrade the interior pass rush. I think guys like Barnes, McClain and blitzing players from the outside would get there a lot more often if there was someone else other than Pryce getting penetration up the middle.

[srobert96]

If he were drafted it would be for Trevor Pryce's position. It certainly would not be in the first round as he is 8th ranked DT. He could be a late 2nd early 3rd. To take him with a 1st rd pick would be a mistake because you definitely could get him with a 2nd even if Ozzie feels he is a 1st round talent.

I do agree he would have potential as a 3-4 DE and a good pick up in the 3rd round.

[srobert96]

TheExtraPoint

I do agree that getting pressure on the QB was a weakness last year. I believe that Rex Ryan did not blitz as much as he has done in past years because of the questions at CB.

Mattison's big thing is getting pressure on the edges. He loves to get speed guys going hard off the edges after the QB. He is also a big fan of having speedy CBs so they cant get beat deep.

I think we will see more blitzes this year than last.

I like Connor Barwin. He seems like he would be a great addition.

[psuasskicker]

yeah, you're right douchebag. what's the knock on this guy, small school? yeah, we saw last year that first rounders from small schools don't work out too well...

Wow. Mature much?

There are plenty of knocks on him. Primary is that it's not really known that he's big and strong enough to play nose, and is too big and slow to play DE. Secondary is that, as it says in your profile, he's a better athelete than football player. Dude makes some huge plays. He also misses plenty.

Virtually every projection out there (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=active&q=jarron+gilbert+projected+round)has him in the 2nd or 3rd round. His stock is soaring during the workout period, which is classically where guys shoot up draft boards and become busts cause they're workout freaks that haven't proven they can play at an NFL level on the field. And you wanna reach for him why?

Jarron Gilbert in the second may make sense. In the first does not.

- C -

[psuasskicker]

he could be the next Dewayne Robertson

You realize that's not a good thing, right?

- C -

[Jeremiah W]

You realize that's not a good thing, right?

- C -

You know the draft is a gamble right? There are no locks, the experts are often wrong.

[psuasskicker]

You know the draft is a gamble right? There are no locks, the experts are often wrong.

You should cut and paste that post over in the DHB thread in response to yourself...

- C -

[Jeremiah W]

You are the one acting like there is some other sure thing we would be passing on if we did not take him at 26. There very well could be 35 guys rated higher for all I know. I did not scout any of them, just saw some of them play a few times on TV.

[psuasskicker]

You are the one acting like there is some other sure thing we would be passing on if we did not take him at 26. There very well could be 35 guys rated higher for all I know. I did not scout any of them, just saw some of them play a few times on TV.

HA!!!

You're a funny dude! I love irony!!

- C -

[52decleetzu]

Let me add some sanity to this thread.

1.Gilbert is a 3-4 DE,dont know where anyone got the "NT" idea.Maybe if he could add 75 pounds he could do it....but Im guesing thats not in the cards.

2.Gilbert is not a DT,he is a DE unless he gets moved inside in dime packages to rush the passer(like Pryce does).

3.Gilbert isnt the 8th ranked anything,some have him as the best 3-4 DE on the board but most have him a little lower.He is all over the board though with some questioning the competition he faced.He is one of those guys who has a wide range of where people think he might go.

4.First round is probably too early(although there are a few who woudnt hesitate to take him there)and he would be a good pick late in the 2nd round if he is still there.A team could easily take him somewhere before that though in the mid 2nd.

6.The only issue some teams have is he usually beats guys with his quick first step,and there are questions as to whether he can do that against top level competition.(Usually he is so fast off the ball the defender doesnt even have a chance to touch him much less block him.)

7.Personally I would be fine with him in the 2nd round,but no way in the first.Little too risky for the first,but perfect in the second.You need a safe,solid pick in the first and thats the way Ozzie usually goes.He would be a huge gamble that high.

[psuasskicker]

Let me add some sanity to this thread.

1.Gilbert is a 3-4 DE,dont know where anyone got the "NT" idea.Maybe if he could add 75 pounds he could do it....but Im guesing thats not in the cards.

2.Gilbert is not a DT,he is a DE unless he gets moved inside in dime packages to rush the passer(like Pryce does).

3.Gilbert isnt the 8th ranked anything,some have him as the best 3-4 DE on the board but most have him a little lower.He is all over the board though with some questioning the competition he faced.He is one of those guys who has a wide range of where people think he might go.

4.First round is probably too early(although there are a few who woudnt hesitate to take him there)and he would be a good pick late in the 2nd round if he is still there.A team could easily take him somewhere before that though in the mid 2nd.

6.The only issue some teams have is he usually beats guys with his quick first step,and there are questions as to whether he can do that against top level competition.(Usually he is so fast off the ball the defender doesnt even have a chance to touch him much less block him.)

7.Personally I would be fine with him in the 2nd round,but no way in the first.Little too risky for the first,but perfect in the second.You need a safe,solid pick in the first and thats the way Ozzie usually goes.He would be a huge gamble that high.

Well said.

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[jonboy79]

I agree with many, Gilbert in the second to add as a wave 3-4 DE makes sense, but not in the first round. Much like DHb, I think he is simply too raw an athlete/project, and not a finished enough player.
Larry English on the other hand, is a small school guy that is a complete player already(as a DE). He would likely move to OLB in our system, and as TEP pointed out, could follow a very Suggs-like path. He and Barwin are certainly Raven type players, btu I really see them having value about 10 spots after our first round selection.
I honestly see the Ravens getting lucky this year and getting a top 20 prospect. A guy like Pettigrew, Tyson Jackson, Rey M, Maybin, etc that falls mostly because of needy reaching teams in front of us. I think WR, CB, OT and QB will all have their own mini runs in the first round in front of us. Those four positions could encompass nearly 20 of the first 25 picks. Raji, Orapko, Curry, and Everette Brown are really the only guarantees, plus likely a back. I think there will be value in the defensive front 7 late in the first, as well as RB, interior OL and perhaps TE(only 1 guy). .

[baltimore_hokie]

gilbert may not be the best value at 26 overall, but he is exactly the type of player we need to replace pryce. barwin and english are solid guys, but we have 5 of them on the roster already. we need a 3-4 DE that is big enough to clog up the running game and explosive enough to rush the passer. barwin and english go 250 lbs max, tyson jackson is around 285 and gilbert is around 295 i believe. if jackson isn't still out there, i think we could trade back for a couple second rounders and try to get a guy like gilbert. he has a massive frame that could add a ton more weight and muscle, but our D thrives with guys like him and ngata that can line up anywhere along the line. he is a bit raw as an athlete, but the video from the shrine game practices above shows that he does more than one move and seems somewhat savvy in his ability to move the OL with his hands. i like kid, his value may not be as high as 26 overall but his upside is through the roof and he is exactly what we need in the first this year.

oh, too big and slow to play DE? top 10 in the 40 for DL, also top performer in vertical and broad jump...

[srobert96]

gilbert may not be the best value at 26 overall, but he is exactly the type of player we need to replace pryce. barwin and english are solid guys, but we have 5 of them on the roster already. we need a 3-4 DE that is big enough to clog up the running game and explosive enough to rush the passer. barwin and english go 250 lbs max, tyson jackson is around 285 and gilbert is around 295 i believe. if jackson isn't still out there, i think we could trade back for a couple second rounders and try to get a guy like gilbert. he has a massive frame that could add a ton more weight and muscle, but our D thrives with guys like him and ngata that can line up anywhere along the line. he is a bit raw as an athlete, but the video from the shrine game practices above shows that he does more than one move and seems somewhat savvy in his ability to move the OL with his hands. i like kid, his value may not be as high as 26 overall but his upside is through the roof and he is exactly what we need in the first this year.

oh, too big and slow to play DE? top 10 in the 40 for DL, also top performer in vertical and broad jump...

While agree with you on this type of player being a good get, it is no good use of your 26th overall pick. If the staff really wants Gilbert they should trade down to the middle of the 2nd round and get some extra picks.

I have not even heard his name prior to this thread and I go to all the sites.

[4G63]

He'll be a 2nd-rounder....

[jonboy79]

I'd love a Pettigrew - Gilbert first day.
I think Gilbert reminds me asmidge of Kendall Langford who moved up into round 2 last year right before draft time.

[psuasskicker]

gilbert may not be the best value at 26 overall,

Not the best overall value + we have other needs beyond simply replacing Pryce = not a good first round pick

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[Dave Lap]

. As we all know, drafting solely based on need is a risky, usually losing proposition in the NFL.

.

That's sooo true but it's totally false that everyone knows it. I can't count the number of times during draft discussions that guys start with "the Ravens need to draft a CB/WR (fill in the position) in the first round".

The thing that GM's are fighting against in the draft are the odds that players picked will be busts. The way to minimize busts is to take the best player regardless of position. It does no good at all to take a WR just because the team needs one if he isn't going to be any better than the guys already on the team-or marginally better. Especially if you pass on say, a ferocious LB that will anchor your D for years to come. Every position makes an impact. As you alluded to in your excellent post, a pass rusher can help the secondary as much or more than a DB.

Moral of the story: Just take the guy in the draft with the best chance of succeeding in the NFL and deal with needs through free agency and trades and you'll be light years ahead of teams who draft based solely on need.

[psuasskicker]

That's sooo true but it's totally false that everyone knows it. I can't count the number of times during draft discussions that guys start with "the Ravens need to draft a CB/WR (fill in the position) in the first round".

The thing that GM's are fighting against in the draft are the odds that players picked will be busts. The way to minimize busts is to take the best player regardless of position. It does no good at all to take a WR just because the team needs one if he isn't going to be any better than the guys already on the team-or marginally better. Especially if you pass on say, a ferocious LB that will anchor your D for years to come. Every position makes an impact. As you alluded to in your excellent post, a pass rusher can help the secondary as much or more than a DB.

Moral of the story: Just take the guy in the draft with the best chance of succeeding in the NFL and deal with needs through free agency and trades and you'll be light years ahead of teams who draft based solely on need.

I think this is mostly true but comes with some "yeah, but"s.

The thing is that need has to play at least some role in the draft because you don't want to fill positions with useless players. For instance, if Matt Stafford fell to us at #26, should we take him? At some point, guys should simply be crossed off the list cause we don't need a position to be filled...it's already filled.

Largely I think prospects should be grouped together. [Top five guys], [next six guys], [next three guys], etc...all guys grouped into levels of how good they are. It's not applicable in the first five or ten picks, but after that the prospects level out a good bit.

Then, say you have to pick at #26. All the guys in your first three groups are taken, one remains in your 4 group, two in your five, and everyone after that. You take the guy in your 4 group )assuming he won't be worthless for you cause the position is taken up, like QB behind Flacco). If there are two guys in your highest group, then you take the one that fills the biggest need.

This balances need with BPA nicely. It recognizes that most teams will have several holes, not just one or two. But it also recognizes that some players simply don't have value to you because the position is filled and that guy won't crack the field.

- C -

[Dave Lap]

I think this is mostly true but comes with some "yeah, but"s.

The thing is that need has to play at least some role in the draft because you don't want to fill positions with useless players. For instance, if Matt Stafford fell to us at #26, should we take him? At some point, guys should simply be crossed off the list cause we don't need a position to be filled...it's already filled.

Largely I think prospects should be grouped together. [Top five guys], [next six guys], [next three guys], etc...all guys grouped into levels of how good they are. It's not applicable in the first five or ten picks, but after that the prospects level out a good bit.

Then, say you have to pick at #26. All the guys in your first three groups are taken, one remains in your 4 group, two in your five, and everyone after that. You take the guy in your 4 group )assuming he won't be worthless for you cause the position is taken up, like QB behind Flacco). If there are two guys in your highest group, then you take the one that fills the biggest need.

This balances need with BPA nicely. It recognizes that most teams will have several holes, not just one or two. But it also recognizes that some players simply don't have value to you because the position is filled and that guy won't crack the field.

- C -

I agree. It's a complex process and I oversimplified it in my earlier post. Another point to consider is that the bpa may not be a need at all for the club (QB for example). If that player is rated higher than anyone else on the board then trading down a few spots and grabbing an extra 3rd or 4th pick is also a possibility. Assuming of course that someone else below you wants that QB badly enough to trade... There are many more "yeah, but's" too....

[Rxdoxx]

I honestly see the Ravens getting lucky this year and getting a top 20 prospect. A guy like Pettigrew, Tyson Jackson, Rey M, Maybin, etc that falls mostly because of needy reaching teams in front of us. I think WR, CB, OT and QB will all have their own mini runs in the first round in front of us. Those four positions could encompass nearly 20 of the first 25 picks. Raji, Orapko, Curry, and Everette Brown are really the only guarantees, plus likely a back. I think there will be value in the defensive front 7 late in the first, as well as RB, interior OL and perhaps TE(only 1 guy).

:iagree: And can't see us taking RB or interior OL, so that leaves D front and Pettigrew for O.

Agree also that Pryce has the "weakness position", don't see a 'next man up' for what he gives us on the field currently on the roster. If he goes down, Suggs gets the double and our CBs come under heavy fire. But with BPA, I know we will intently watching who is falling as our clock nears. Oz could easily get one of his top 20 slots at 26.

[TheExtraPoint]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/football/nfl/03/20/riser.sliders/


Connor Barwin/DL-OLB/Cincinnati: Barwin proved himself to be first round worthy at last month's combine and on Thursday erased any remaining doubt he deserves to be a top 32 selection. Barwin improved his 40 time from Indianapolis, posting 4.48 seconds. He then put on a show for scouts in the position drills. The former tight end worked out with the offensive linemen to show his blocking prowess and with the receivers to display his pass catching skills. Barwin also did defensive line and linebacker drills. He's getting a lot of interest from teams who select in the late part of round one such as the New England Patriots and Miami Dolphins.

Well apparently the secret is out.

Barwin seems to be less of an under-the-radar find than I hoped. Draft status is the type of thing that usually remains in flux leading all the way up to draft day so you have to take this for what it's worth, but given the impressive 40 time, versatility, and upside, it's not unreasonable to think Barwin could be long gone by the time the Ravens pick, especially in a league that has placed a premium on hybrid outside defenders.

I'll give it up.