OT / The Wire

[HoustonRaven]

Apologies up front if this is the wrong forum ....

Anyone watch the series finale of The Wire? Thoughts?

I for one loved it and got the message at the end -- nothing changes. I was watching it with lilly-liberal g/f (I call her that to her face and she doesnt mind) last night and she hated it, wanting to see Marlo "get got" and was pissed when Cheese got popped. Although I was a bit disappointed with this season, I do think it ended on a high note.

[purplepoe]

I think I saw your comment on the Sun's comment board.

I saw it. Loved it. People who are whining about the finale are clueless. It's impossible to end this show in a perfect way.

What the finale showed was the cycle that is Baltimore.

It's the best show I've ever seen.

PP

[Rayvens52]

I think I saw your comment on the Sun's comment board.

I saw it. Loved it. People who are whining about the finale are clueless. It's impossible to end this show in a perfect way.

What the finale showed was the cycle that is Baltimore.

It's the best show I've ever seen.

PP

you could not have said it any better. By far he best show ever made. I thought it was a great finale. I am very sorry to see it end, with this gone and sopranos over there is nothing else to watch anymore. My only hope is they bring it back, and let Barksdale have one more shot at it!

[Mista T]

I missed all season due to choosing STARZ/Showtime package over HBO, but I'll start HBO On Demand for a month to catch the entire season. I read somewhere that my favorite surviving character - Omar - got whacked this year. May he rest in peace.

Really sorry to see it end, but it really ran its course. The first two seasons were outstanding. The Sopranos received more noterity, but the Wire was the best drama series of contemporary TV.





It's the best show I've ever seen.

PP

:iagree: (now that makes 2 things) :laugh:

[purplepoe]

:iagree: (now that makes 2 things) :laugh:

O boy.

Maybe I didn't like it as much as I thought!!!

Just kidding.

I have a little background insight into the show as my good friend and best man at my wedding is Ed Burns' son.

Mr. Burns (get me some coffee Smithers) recently got back from Africa. He is working on another project that I'm sure will be great. It's called Generation Kill and he again teamed up with Simon. What I should really say is Simon teamed up with Burns.

PP

[HoustonRaven]

Those who do not understand the premise of the Wire are the same ones that are not "getting" the ending.

Im in the middle of The Corner (book, not dvd) and cannot put it down. The realism of the street is far more reaching then the show.

[Purpleguy]

The finale was perfect. This show isn't a Sopranos where 90% is based on pure fiction and stereotypes. This show was based on real life events and given fictional characters to play them out. It ended just like it started, true to life in Baltimore. The crooked mayor who came into office with such promise becomes governor. The Baltimore Sun continues with the lies and rewards those writing them. One drug kingpin steps down and someone else takes his place. Cops that want to change things become irrelevant, and cops that will play the political system get made commisioner.

The Wire is far and away the best show ever put on television. It never developed a huge following and I think that has alot to do with the fact that you can't just watch one episode and get the whole story.

[psuasskicker]

[This post contains spoilers]

There's no question in my mind that anyone saying they're pissed and disappointed because they wanted to see Marlo "get got" has no clue what this show is actually about. It actually makes me wonder if they've seen it prior to this season. The theme of this show isn't "let's make a happy ending"...it's that life goes on in perpetuity, nothing ever really changes.

I think the biggest problem people have with this show is that they watch TV to escape reality, not live it. This show is real life, and people don't want to see that because you wind up feeling bad when bad guys die (Stringer, Bodie) and having to live through the tragedies when characters you care for go down horrible paths that don't necessarily lead to redemption (Duquan, Randy).

Many flat out missed the point of this episode, and the season in general. The media reaction - particularly by The Sun - was easy to see coming. It's one reason why I feel like this show has no shot at winning an Emmy, despite its deserving one every season it's aired.

At the same time this season was simultaneously the best and worst they've produced in the series. The worst because HBO allowed Simon and Burns only 10.5 hours to tell a 13+ hour story; so it certainly felt rushed at times. Shame on HBO for commercializing themselves when they bill themselves otherwise. Chalk this one up with their cancelling Carnivale and Deadwood before they'd run their course. The best because this season pulled the emotion strings more than even S4 could, and that's quite an accomplishment. I almost cried twice in Episode 9 when Bubs got up to speak in front of the group. The first as he announced his anniversary, the second when he talked about Charod. And the scene where Duquan and Michael were in the car and Dookie asked Mike if he remembered throwing the piss balloons and buying him ice cream, and Mike not remembering it, was one of the best put on TV. Heart-breaking to then watch Dookie walk off to the junk-men alley, sealing his fate.

If I had to rank, I think I put them like this (best to worst)
1 - S4
2 - S3
3 - S5
4 - S1
5 - S2
And S2 is still five star material...better than almost any other season of television I've seen. I don't think there will ever be a season of television that can hold a candle to S4.


The Wire is far and away the best show ever put on television.

No question about it, and it's not even close. We could go another 25 years and never see anything like it. It's television at its finest, and I'm really sad to see it go.

- C -

[Losac]

Just watched the finale for a second time, and have come to the conclusion that it's absolutely brilliant. They tie up many story lines (Bubbles, Daniels, Carcetti), but leave it fairly ambiguous on others - does Marlo get back in the game? Will Michael "get" Marlo the way Omar got Stringer? What will happen to McNulty now that he's not a cop? Will they prosecute McNulty and Freamon now that the election is over?

All questions subject to viewer interpretation and debate. The Wire was never about cute, Hollywood happy endings. In real life sometimes the bad guys win (Marlo, Templeton) and horrible things happen to good people (Dukie). I know most wanted to see Omar and Marlo battle it out and go out in a blaze of glory, but Omar getting it from Kenard was brilliant. Who else but an innocent looking kid could take down a street legend like Omar? And the embellished stories about the circumstances behind Omar's death the corner kids continued to tell are just testament to his larger-than-life status.

The Sun's coverage of this season has been laughable. Their critic, David Zaruwik (sp?), has been bashing it the entire season. You can almost picture Scott Templeton writing these columns with Klebanow over his shoulder whispering sweet nothings about Pulitzers and the 'Dickension Aspect'.

R.I.P. The Wire - you will be missed!

[HoustonRaven]

I think the biggest problem people have with this show is that they watch TV to escape reality, not live it.

I could not have put it any better then this! I've been looking for a way to describe the series to people and thats a perfect description.

Here is my season ranking. Keep in mind I loved all the seasons, just some a little less:

1 - Season 1
2 - Season 4
3 - Season 3
4 - Season 2
5 - Season 5

I agree this season was rushed and I was a bit disappointed in Simon's decision to use the serial killer / McNulty manufacturing evidence plot line. I know many police officers at various levels of rank and while the manipulation of stuff to generate overtime is indeed a practice, they never go to the extreme Simon portrays.

Did anyone else catch the Sydnor / McNulty comparison towards the end? Sydnor turning to Judgen Faylen and saying "just leave my name out of it" took me all the way back to episode 1, season 1 ... It was genious!

Losac - I dont think Freeman and McNutly were going to get charged. Rawls and Daniels kind of explained that when they dressed McNulty down in the interview room. Everyone had a desire to "swallow the lie" as Daniels put it.

[Losac]

Losac - I dont think Freeman and McNutly were going to get charged. Rawls and Daniels kind of explained that when they dressed McNulty down in the interview room. Everyone had a desire to "swallow the lie" as Daniels put it.

Well, the only reason everyone was swallowing the lie was so Carcetti wouldn't look bad before the election. They seemed to imply they could still be indicted afterwards.

Plus, when Pearlman was talking to Levy in his office, she said Marlo's case would go on the stet docket, but would come off right away and go to court if he ever got near any drugs again "even if they did have to take down a few dirty cops with him". Showing Marlo on the street after beating up the corner boys leaves many to believe he just can't stay away from the "gangsta life".

Again, just one of the many things up for debate and interpretation. Part of what makes the show so great!

[psuasskicker]

First off, every fan needs to go read this interview with David Simon after the finale aired...
http://www.salon.com/ent/tv/feature/2008/03/10/simon/


I agree this season was rushed and I was a bit disappointed in Simon's decision to use the serial killer / McNulty manufacturing evidence plot line. I know many police officers at various levels of rank and while the manipulation of stuff to generate overtime is indeed a practice, they never go to the extreme Simon portrays.

I don't agree with this. Your connections may not have, and I've worked with police officers past and present who probably haven't as well, but two things are worth noting here...
1) Something like this wouldn't happen often, and we have too small a sample size to say that this couldn't happen.
2) If it did happen, we'd never know it.

The line between dirty and not dirty gets blurred all too often. Take in S1 where McNulty was listening to the tap and Prez wanted to say Sydnor wasn't there so it wouldn't be "pertinent" since they couldn't use it, and McNulty saying "Yes he was." Or Bunk pointing to WeeBay and Little Man after Kima got shot. Dirty or not? The line gets blurred all too often.

And what's brilliant about what they did here is show the good and bad behind what happened. It started out as something very simple...rearrange a body, try to get some extra funding, who really could it hurt? But it snowballed beyond what McNulty thought it would, and showed really who can get hurt from something like this. Cops were taken off real police work. Larry had to leave the place he called home, even though he was a little crazy. They risked allowing the target of their investigation going scott-free because of what they did. And it also showed the good that came of it...they took down much of Marlo's crew.


Did anyone else catch the Sydnor / McNulty comparison towards the end? Sydnor turning to Judgen Faylen and saying "just leave my name out of it" took me all the way back to episode 1, season 1 ... It was genious!

The whole end of the show did that. It showed really how nothing ever changes. People evolve themselves, but then it's just the younger generation coming through their footsteps next...
Michael becomes Omar
Duquan becomes Bubbles
Sydnor becomes McNulty
Carver becomes Daniels
Carcetti becomes Royce (the political hack)
Slim Charles becomes Avon
Namond becomes Bunny Colvin
Valchek becomes Burrell
It all goes full circle.


Plus, when Pearlman was talking to Levy in his office, she said Marlo's case would go on the stet docket, but would come off right away and go to court if he ever got near any drugs again "even if they did have to take down a few dirty cops with him". Showing Marlo on the street after beating up the corner boys leaves many to believe he just can't stay away from the "gangsta life".

I'm actually reading this in a lot of reviews (although saying it about the "drug life", which I think is what you mean here) and I don't agree with it at all. It's not showing that he can't stay out of that life, it's showing that he can't go through life not being respected on the street.

We saw that in episode 9 when he learned Omar was calling him out and he never heard about it. He blew up at Monk and Chris... "What the f*ck you know about what I need on my mind mothaf*cka??? My name was on the street??? When we bounce from this sh*t here, we gonna go down on them corners and let them people know; word did not get back to me. Let 'em know Marlo'll step to any muthaf*cka, Omar, Barksdale, whoever. My name is my name!"

Marlo's name was the most important thing. He HAD to have that street cred. Without it he felt like nothing, and it was worth it to him to risk his life taking on some punk street thugs to show that he's hard enough to come down to the streets and show his dominance. And he said it walking up to those kids... "Don't you know who I am???"

It's his street cred that matters to him. He never cared about the drug game...he cared about the respect.

- C -

[HoustonRaven]

PSU,

I think we were saying the same thing in regards to evidence and the lines being blurry. I just dont think there is a cop alive that would not only rearrage a dead body and then solicit others into it with the depth and scope McNult and Freemen went. I agree with you 100% on the Bunk and other examples.

And I noticed the other connections too. It seemed very little attention was made to the Sydnor / McNaulty one, thats all.

I went back and started watching Season 1. This will be good filler until the draft! :)

[Losac]

I'm actually reading this in a lot of reviews (although saying it about the "drug life", which I think is what you mean here) and I don't agree with it at all. It's not showing that he can't stay out of that life, it's showing that he can't go through life not being respected on the street.

We saw that in episode 9 when he learned Omar was calling him out and he never heard about it. He blew up at Monk and Chris... "What the f*ck you know about what I need on my mind mothaf*cka??? My name was on the street??? When we bounce from this sh*t here, we gonna go down on them corners and let them people know; word did not get back to me. Let 'em know Marlo'll step to any muthaf*cka, Omar, Barksdale, whoever. My name is my name!"

Marlo's name was the most important thing. He HAD to have that street cred. Without it he felt like nothing, and it was worth it to him to risk his life taking on some punk street thugs to show that he's hard enough to come down to the streets and show his dominance. And he said it walking up to those kids... "Don't you know who I am???"

It's his street cred that matters to him. He never cared about the drug game...he cared about the respect.


David Simon said in an interview that Marlo's desire was totalitarian power over others, and his fate was a kind of justice because he was cut off from that power and his reputation. It was supposed to be deliberately ambiguous.

If his primary motivation is power, I just find it hard to believe he could just walk away from the game and become a legit businessman. Simon says it's ironic that Marlo has everything Stringer Bell ever wanted but doesn't appreciate it. I can't see someone like Marlo Stanfield being content just beating up on corner boys.

[psuasskicker]

I think we were saying the same thing in regards to evidence and the lines being blurry. I just dont think there is a cop alive that would not only rearrage a dead body and then solicit others into it with the depth and scope McNult and Freemen went.

Nonsense!

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C06E4D91438F931A3575AC0A962958260
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsification_of_Evidence

Not to mention police corruption. There are cops who will outright do anything when it comes to getting involved in the drug trade...do you honestly think that there aren't cops who are willing to do anything to fight criminals the same way? "The ends justify the means" is a very popular sentiment in society, particularly among its protectors. There certainly would be those that could and would go as far as McNulty and Freamon did to put away a drug dealer, given the right circumstances.


David Simon said in an interview that Marlo's desire was totalitarian power over others, and his fate was a kind of justice because he was cut off from that power and his reputation. It was supposed to be deliberately ambiguous.

If his primary motivation is power, I just find it hard to believe he could just walk away from the game and become a legit businessman. Simon says it's ironic that Marlo has everything Stringer Bell ever wanted but doesn't appreciate it. I can't see someone like Marlo Stanfield being content just beating up on corner boys.

We're saying the same thing, I probably just didn't clarify it. It is ambiguous as to whether or not he actually gets back into the game...that part I agree with. But a lot of people seem to be suggesting that it's not; that his trip to the corner shows that he can't live outside the game. I'm saying I don't think that at all...I think it simply meant he can't live without the street cred, without his name.

- C -

[Poe86]

I watched all 5 seasons, which were all awesome, but I'm not sure if I missed something or what? Did they ever bring up what the council president had on Commissioner Daniels that forced him to resign? Was this ever addressed or are we just suppose to assume? Whatever it was, it involved his ex-wife as well. It also didn't affect his ability to become a member of the bar, so I'm not sure it was publicly known. Anyone have any insight?

[psuasskicker]

I watched all 5 seasons, which were all awesome, but I'm not sure if I missed something or what? Did they ever bring up what the council president had on Commissioner Daniels that forced him to resign? Was this ever addressed or are we just suppose to assume? Whatever it was, it involved his ex-wife as well. It also didn't affect his ability to become a member of the bar, so I'm not sure it was publicly known. Anyone have any insight?

This was initially hinted at, at the beginning of S1 where McNulty was talking with his FBI buddy. He said something on Daniels like he and his crew were accused of stealing money on some detail they were on. It was always very vague but the implication is that he took money when he shouldn't have, and rolled it into family money which could implicate his wife in it.

That was always my take on it.

- C -

[HoustonRaven]

Nonsense!

Not to mention police corruption. There are cops who will outright do anything when it comes to getting involved in the drug trade...do you honestly think that there aren't cops who are willing to do anything to fight criminals the same way? "The ends justify the means" is a very popular sentiment in society, particularly among its protectors. There certainly would be those that could and would go as far as McNulty and Freamon did to put away a drug dealer, given the right circumstances.

Gimme a break. One article about a State Trooper who faked a fingerprint and a Wiki entry and that somehow proves your point? You do understand anyone can add entries to Wiki, right?

99% of the cops out there are fair and honest. I never disagreed with you that cops do not from time to time fabricate a fingerprint, kick in a door that is locked, smack the side of their lazer to jack up the speed on the speed gun, etc. I was a Military Policemen for 10 years and I saw (an engaged in a few) of these tricks.

What I DO NOT agree happens is the purposeful manipulation of numerous dead bodies over the span of months in order to get more OT in their checks and then solicit other officers into the caper. That simply DOES NOT HAPPEN and that's where Simon went a little heavy with the dramatic license. Remember, McNulty started the shole thing by getting his team some OT hours. The turn towards Marlo didnt come till after McNulty already got going. There are dozens and dozens of easier ways to juke the system of some OT -- believe me, I've pulled a few myself.

And, no I do not think there is this high number of cops that would do this as you suggest. Just because a very small few have done it once of twice doesnt mean its as common a practice as you suggest. The overwhelming majority of the cops I know and have worked with understand they will never save the world and are only working in a system they did not create.

[psuasskicker]

And, no I do not think there is this high number of cops that would do this as you suggest. Just because a very small few have done it once of twice doesnt mean its as common a practice as you suggest. The overwhelming majority of the cops I know and have worked with understand they will never save the world and are only working in a system they did not create.

Woah dude, don't put words into my mouth...I never once said nor suggested I thought it was a "high number of cops that would do this". I said specifically I thought it was not at all a common occurance; but do you honestly believe that of all the cops out there, knowing there are some that can be and have been horribly evil, that there could not be any that would do something like this? My simple statement is that I don't agree...I think there are those that could, and probably have been those that did. We likely haven't heard about it for many of the same reasons as were shown on the show.

Do I think this is rampant through police forces in every city? Not at all!

Do I think that it's never happened anywhere in this country? No, I don't...I think it probably has.

This is a semantic issue...I'm simply saying it's too much to assert that it's never and/or could never happen. Absolutes are too unlikely given how many police officers there are and have been over the history of this country. I'm more than willing to drop the issue cause it's not serving much purpose anymore.

- C -

[JimBone]

:iagree:
Just watched the finale for a second time, and have come to the conclusion that it's absolutely brilliant. They tie up many story lines (Bubbles, Daniels, Carcetti), but leave it fairly ambiguous on others - does Marlo get back in the game? Will Michael "get" Marlo the way Omar got Stringer? What will happen to McNulty now that he's not a cop? Will they prosecute McNulty and Freamon now that the election is over?

All questions subject to viewer interpretation and debate. The Wire was never about cute, Hollywood happy endings. In real life sometimes the bad guys win (Marlo, Templeton) and horrible things happen to good people (Dukie). I know most wanted to see Omar and Marlo battle it out and go out in a blaze of glory, but Omar getting it from Kenard was brilliant. Who else but an innocent looking kid could take down a street legend like Omar? And the embellished stories about the circumstances behind Omar's death the corner kids continued to tell are just testament to his larger-than-life status.

The Sun's coverage of this season has been laughable. Their critic, David Zaruwik (sp?), has been bashing it the entire season. You can almost picture Scott Templeton writing these columns with Klebanow over his shoulder whispering sweet nothings about Pulitzers and the 'Dickension Aspect'.

R.I.P. The Wire - you will be missed!

I agree 100% I only wish I could have put it that eloquently. Definitelty the best tv series I've ever seen. When reality tv rules the airwaves it's no wonder The Wire doesn't do well in the ratings. Most people don't want to watch a television series that makes them think.( there's a reason they call it the boob tube)

[Losac]

When will the DVDs with all the seasons come out?

The DVD's for seasons 1-4 are already out. Since season 5 just finished airing, I'd say they probably won't release those until Christmas at least.

[psuasskicker]

http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.wordpress.com/2008/03/09/85-the-wire/

:rolling:

- C -