Suggs Part II [Archive] - Baltimore Ravens Forums and Message Boards

UKRaven

03-06-2008, 08:22 AM

camdenyard

03-06-2008, 09:05 AM

I say if he put his hand in the dirt more than 50% of the time, he should get his money. That's the standard. The ravens need to suck it up and do the right thing.

If they can pay Billick $15 million for doing nothing, they can pay Suggs.

Ravannapolis

03-06-2008, 09:13 AM

I say trade him - he's not that good, and if he's going to be trouble get rid quick !!!

Agreed. For the money he wants, I'm pretty sure we can do better. Of course, no one has ever accidentally called me Nostradamus.

Rxdoxx

03-06-2008, 09:41 AM

Not sure how much of it is Suggs himself, and how much of it is his agent's doing.
Can't be pride in the top 5, 'cause franchise conveys that recognition regardless of DE or LB

I agree with the "he is not that good" stance.
Sure he drew the double team after Trevor went down, but not before that.
He is a pass rushing specialist whose effectiveness as a DE is not top 5, and we can maybe argue that he is really not a top 5 LB either.
As a tweener though we can call him a top 5 tweener :D
And he does deserve his payday. I think the lower number for a top 5 tweener is the fairer number (Reggie White he ain't).

festivus

03-06-2008, 09:44 AM

It's just business. Wake me up when something happens.

HoustonRaven

03-06-2008, 09:49 AM

Agreed with Festivus ....

While he's not making new friends with this latest tactic, its is simply just a tactic in the end.

If he keeps it up come draft time, trade is ungreatful arse.

crazyraven

03-06-2008, 10:10 AM

I say if he put his hand in the dirt more than 50% of the time, he should get his money. That's the standard.
I have to agree with this 100%
What bothers me is how the ravens look. It really makes the ravens to appear very petty to short change him then ask him to go sack the qb. if you dont want to pay him let him go but stop the games already.
Come on SB and Oz give this guy his money and lets stop the BS.

meangene55

03-06-2008, 10:31 AM

:taz:
If Sizzles like Arizona so much they should have sent him there when they had the chance.:taz:

Tsizzle for Larry Fitzgerald.:taz:

Rayvens52

03-06-2008, 10:35 AM

This is all over about $500k. Personally i don't think it is much of a story as ozzie has already said they plan on giving him a long term contract before the season. I think the sun is just begging for a story like always

psuasskicker

03-06-2008, 10:46 AM

I say trade him - he's not that good

:rolling:

Thanks dude...I've had a pretty stressful day so far, I needed that.

- C -

UKRaven

03-06-2008, 12:30 PM

:rolling:

Thanks dude...I've had a pretty stressful day so far, I needed that.

- C -

Let me re-phrase that then:

For the money he is (quoted as) asking for we could get a better DE, or a better 3-4 OLB. As a 'tweener' he does not justify a stellar 'Freeney' salary.

I think he should be well paid if he wants to stay, but if he wants to break our bank I'd pass on him. We have to stand firm somewhere, otherwise we will win jack s&*t for years to come!

jonboy79

03-06-2008, 01:04 PM

A few weeks ago there was a very interesting Suggs thread. As per today's Sun he has now filed against the Ravens. :thumbdown:

Seems he still considers he should get a 4-3 DE's salary. No wait! He should get the salary of the BEST 4-3 DE - 'cos he's that good!!!!

It seems every day we hear "I should get the same money as X 'cos I do just as good a job".

I say trade him - he's not that good, and if he's going to be trouble get rid quick !!!

I say sign him for less then $25m guaranteed and $10m per year average, or trade him come draft day. If he really has to be the highest paid pass rusher, I'm fine with signing such a young guy to an 8 year $80m with $25m guaranteed as the absolute max high end deal. It is still inferior to Freeney's annual average and guarantee, btu the length increases the overal value enough to trump it there. Victory for all. In 5 years it could easily look like a bargain. There is little risk of failure, he is young and is at worst a Plus player at OLB in a 3/4. At best he is a probowler at 4-3 DE and 3-4 OLB.

But Seriously? Sign him Long term or trade him during the draft...

Dade

03-06-2008, 01:45 PM

It's just business. Wake me up when something happens.

:iagree:

psuasskicker

03-06-2008, 03:21 PM

Let me re-phrase that then:

For the money he is (quoted as) asking for we could get a better DE, or a better 3-4 OLB. As a 'tweener' he does not justify a stellar 'Freeney' salary.

I think he should be well paid if he wants to stay, but if he wants to break our bank I'd pass on him. We have to stand firm somewhere, otherwise we will win jack s&*t for years to come!

I'm not really sure why you think that other than that he had one down year in sacks last season, which wasn't actually a bad year overall and where we had injuries across the board that hurt this defense. He's an elite pass rusher, top four with Freeny, Peppers, and Osi Whosyomama, and he's only 25 years old so he's entering his prime.

He's certainly not going to break our bank for Freeny-type money with a $116MM cap this season and what will probably be 5% - 8% increases annually. By the time he's in the 5th or 6th year of his deal the cap would likely be $150MM or more. Keep in mind the Colts gave Freeny his money PLUS Manning getting his giant contract. They're not exactly cap strapped right now, and by the time those contracts seriously start escalating the cap will be big enough that it's not a big problem. Plus, who knows if by then there's even still a cap.

I don't care if it takes $25 - $30 mil guar and $80 - $90 mil for 8 years. Look at the rest of the market. Freakin' Justin Smith, who's probably not even a top 20 pass rusher, just got $7.5MM a year with $20MM guar. Who can we get that's better than Suggs for the money he's asking? There's no one better than Suggs on the market (few better period), and his asking price is at market.

Get it done.

- C -

HoustonRaven

03-06-2008, 07:58 PM

I just read a few other articles, including one in AZ .....

Go to hell, Terrell. Heap restructured for your ungrateful ass and if you wanna play this kind of game then dont let the door hit you in the ass.

You went on every media outlet under the sun, wearing red, a yankees hat, anythig other then your Baltimore colors yet we're supposed to believe that you "want to stay in Baltimore" after this nonsense?

Good riddance!

otherside_of_tracks

03-06-2008, 09:27 PM

Suggs is a great player and i'd hate to see him go. But it doesn't look like he wants to be here as much as he'd said. I'd really wish that he'd stay in baltimore. but if we have to trade him i hope it's not a deal like Randy Moss for a 4th round pick.

purplepoe

03-06-2008, 09:38 PM

I'm sorry, but people are making way too much of this.

PP

UKRaven

03-07-2008, 02:49 AM

I'm sorry, but people are making way too much of this.

PP

Perhaps we are - but to some it's a pricipal point! Heap restructured to make room and he comes back with 'I want more'. Plus the greivance will have to be heard - which takes up more of our management's time. We should not let one guy ruin our pre-season. Other good players are slipping by whilst his agent 'can not get a deal done' :kissass:

The more important point is that we need to build a 'team' if we want to win again. The Defence already takes up most of our salary cap - and has holes in it all over. Do we need to go anywhere with the problems on Offence :179421: !!!

The creation of a winning Ravens team can NOT be done with a cap buster Suggs deal at the moment.

Do we fill our holes or Sugg's agents pockets ? :rolleyes:

HoustonRaven

03-07-2008, 06:14 AM

Perhaps we are - but to some it's a pricipal point! Heap restructured to make room and he comes back with 'I want more'. Plus the greivance will have to be heard - which takes up more of our management's time.

Spot on. Normally, I would be in PP's camp and not worry about a negotiation. Now that he has filed a grievance, this situation has no turned from a simple ploy into turning a buck to a legit off-season problem

Do we fill our holes or Sugg's agents pockets ? :rolleyes:

Agreed. No player is worth extended aggravation.

highwater

03-07-2008, 11:32 AM

Putting aside for a moment the issues of what Suggs is reportedly asking for and whether or not he's worth it, this grievance seems to be an unnecessary annoyance. And the Ravens share in making it unnecessary, because if Suggs really has played more downs at DE than at OLB, then they should have just franchised him at DE and not made this an issue. If they really think they'll sign him to a long term deal and make this all a moot point, then it makes it odd to me that they would try to short-change him.

And all over what, about $800K? That's a hell of lot to me, but Suggs could probably spend it in a weekend in Vegas.

Ravenswarrior19

03-07-2008, 11:50 AM

A few quick points:

if Suggs really has played more downs at DE than at OLB, then they should have just franchised him at DE and not made this an issue

I don't know what the precedent is for a franchise player's position. Suggs is listed as a LB everywhere, and has gone to pro-bowls as a linebacker. If you start counting snaps at each position, is it as simple as "hand up" vs. "hand down"? And if you do count snaps, do you do it for just the '07 season, or his whole career?

This issue wil probably need arbitration to sort out. If there are any previous cases, i would love to hear about them.

And all over what, about $800K? That's a hell of lot to me, but Suggs could probably spend it in a weekend in Vegas.

While this may be true, a new light may be shed on this because we are talking about a football player. This franchise tag could be Sugg's last guaranteed money of his career. That $800K sounds a little more important if he gets hurt in the 1st week of camp.

UKRaven

03-07-2008, 01:30 PM

The '$800K' is the tip of the iceberg to what he will DEMAND if he is deemed to actually be a DE in arbitration. Such a decision would be add millions to his contract demands.

If he is 'deemed' to be an OLB (and he is a good one!) will he spit out his dummy (pacifier :usa: ) and refuse to play or something else?

When a agent has put a player's head so far into the clouds (mega $$$'s) can he then bring himself back down again?

The good teams would be walking away by now - knowing that a player has been ruined :crazy: :grbac:

Ravenswarrior19

03-07-2008, 01:37 PM

The '$800K' is the tip of the iceberg to what he will DEMAND if he is deemed to actually be a DE in arbitration. Such a decision would be add millions to his contract demands.

I never even thought about that side of it. Wow, that would be critical.

As for walking away from him - I don't see this team doing that. Nor do I think we should. We may be in cap jail now, but we won't be in coming years when a lot of our big contracts retire. Not to mention how high the cap number will be by the end of Sugg's prospective new deal.

Rayvens52

03-07-2008, 04:51 PM

Why should he just say ok i'll take $800k less than I should be making. Sure he is rich and prob does not need it but would any of us take a cut at work if we did not deserve to. There is no chance in hell I would let the Ravens screw me out of $800k if i deserved it. I personally don't think we should sign him to a long term deal until atleast part of the season has played out or is over, so we can see how he performs. If his numbers stay the same let him go, if not sign him. I just think before we invest the kind of money we are going to we should see him play well again.

Raveninwoodlawn

03-07-2008, 05:30 PM

Give me a break.

This team has completely restricted Suggs movement and ability to negotiate with multiple teams.

If he was on the open market, he would have been paid a gigantic contract yesterday.

I have no problem with him wanting an extra $810k.

I'd do the exact same thing

UKRaven

03-08-2008, 04:16 AM

Raveninwoodlawn

03-08-2008, 06:30 AM

Screw the Ravens? The team doesn't have to franchise him, if they don't or can't pay the money, then they don't hae to pay Suggs a dime. He is not under any contract.

If anything, he was screwed by the Ravens by the team completely restricting his movement. Out on the market, Suggs would get close to $30 million garunteed...here he is only garunteed around $8 million. if anybody is getting screwed, it's Suggs.

And if he plays most ot the time with his hand in the dirt, just give him the extra cash...he is a hybrid player. Unfortunately, when you have guys that move around like Suggs, that is what you get. IMHO, from what I've seen, he plays his best with his hand in the dirt and is best attacking the LOS...basically what a DE does.

Raineman

03-08-2008, 09:00 AM

I really don't know how I feel about this. Most of me doesn't give a rat's a$$ about it, BUT my initial reaction to hearing this was, "F him". Whether he deserves it or not, I didn't get that warm fuzzy "team player" feeling when he did this.

If the Ravens are trying to get that "team" attitude back in the locker room, then I think someone didn't get the memo.

ravenwoman

03-08-2008, 03:04 PM

jonboy79

03-08-2008, 03:49 PM

In all seriousness, you can pin our cap woes basically on a single contract. Steve McNair. If we were getting our money's worth on his deal we would have gone 11-5, not 5-11. We would have won a playoff game by now as well. UNfortunately we have a BIG deal at the most important position and last season we got NOTHING, or maybe even a bit less then that last year out of it.

HoustonRaven

03-08-2008, 07:00 PM

The Ravens got themselves in this mess (meaning cap hell) by overpaying guys like Steve McNair, Samari Rolle, Trevor Price and most of the other "Over30, over the hill type players." If they would have managed the cap properly, then 800K would seem like chump change. Since we are strapped so tight from past mistakes all we have now is a fairly old team and huge contracts with big signing bonuses that now, we have to pay off. This really isn't about Suggs, but about the Ravens not managing the cap.

cap hell? mess?

We're up against the cap, sure, but we're in no way in cap hell.

How are we different from teams like the Pats, Steelers, Colts etc when it comes to cap management? ALL good playoff teams go up against the cap from time to time. If you want cap hell, take a look down I-95. McNair's number goes away at the end of next season (assuming he goes away). Heap and others will or have agreed to restructure. I thank God we dont do the roster purges like other teams do.

You're over-blowing our cap situation big time. In the age of the cap, you're always going to have years where you're up against a cap number. That's just the nature of doing biz in the NFL.

ravenwoman

03-09-2008, 08:08 AM

We are Number 31 on the list for cap space. I have proved my point and if you don't want to call it "cap hell" so be it. If the Ravens had all kinds of money laying around, 800K would not be a big deal. That is the point I was trying to make. Don't pin it on Suggs. He is just trying to get what he feels he deserves. If you don't think he deserves it, than just say so. Don't go saying the Ravens are brilliant cap managers, because they aren't. Go root for the Texans, where you belong.

HoustonRaven

03-09-2008, 09:40 AM

Good God. Why do you attack when people disagree with you? You need an education on what the cap number means.

We are Number 31 on the list for cap space. I have proved my point and if you don't want to call it "cap hell" so be it.

Yes, this year we're high on the list. And next year a bunch of other teams will be at the top of the list. And the year after that, a new set of teams. If you're managing the cap the way you're supposed to, you will float around with your cap space. You act like teams are never supposed to high on that list. If you're high on that list year after year, THEN you have issues.

If the Ravens had all kinds of money laying around, 800K would not be a big deal. That is the point I was trying to make. Don't pin it on Suggs. He is just trying to get what he feels he deserves. If you don't think he deserves it, than just say so.

The cap and Suggs has nothing to do with how much money Bisciotti has "laying around" or what player deserves what. Both sides have a legit beef.

Don't go saying the Ravens are brilliant cap managers, because they aren't.

Thank you for that insightful and factual analysis. See, when I formulate my thought about which team is or is not cap managers, I use things like facts. Call me crazy but they are quite helpful. You literally might the only person I have ever heard talk about the Ravens in this way. Since the big "blow-up" in 2002, they have done an excellent job as cap managers. Since then, they have never blown their roster with huge cap purges like many other teams.

Go root for the Texans, where you belong.

Oy. And now we come to the ad hominim attack -- the last bastion of someone who has lost in a debate. I guess this doesnt surprise me given how hostile you are with people who disagree with you.

Born and raised in Baltimore yet Im supposed to give up my PSL's and root for the Texans after I was asked to move after a huge promotion? Yeah, that sounds really smart. So 8 times a season, I climb on a plane at my own expense and fly in for home games yet my fanhood gets called into questions by someone who his hostile with every Ravens fan who disagrees with her???

ravensfan1996

03-09-2008, 09:49 AM

I agree with the people that said you are making too much of this....

Like someone else said this is ALL business. The Ravens made a business decision to franchise him at the lower salary...(thus saving the team 800k and of course cap space). Suggs and the union filed the grievance for the same business reasons, they feel players should be franchised at the position they played. Suggs may not have even cared, but the UNION im sure let him know.

Suggs works for a Union. The NFL players Union. Usually the union will come to you and say "hey, this is unfair to you and to future players this happens too, so we want you to file a grievance." SO he does, even if he didnt want to, hes obligated by the union to make the union stronger and help other players if this would happen to them. I work in a union and now how it goes.

A grievance is NOT a lawsuit. Unions file grievances all the time, some rightfully so and some knowing they are wrong but just to let the NFL know they dont agree with it, and hopefully some changes come out of filing the grievances over and over.

Anyway, I dont think this is SUGGS vs the Ravens....its business on both sides and from what ive read, suggs might be right.

psuasskicker

03-09-2008, 11:10 AM

We are Number 31 on the list for cap space. I have proved my point and if you don't want to call it "cap hell" so be it.

#31 on cap list <> cap hell and it's not close.

If the Ravens had all kinds of money laying around, 800K would not be a big deal.

This is stupid. You think that successful businesses just throw this kind of money around? $800k here, $800k there, who cares when you generate so much revenue???

It doesn't work that way. Employees try to get paid, businesses try to save money. You think the Ravens should just give all of their players whatever they want the first time they ask for it?

Cap numbers aren't the only thing that dictates what a player will get paid.

- C -

HoustonRaven

03-09-2008, 11:25 AM

#31 on cap list <> cap hell and it's not close.

This is stupid. You think that successful businesses just throw this kind of money around? $800k here, $800k there, who cares when you generate so much revenue???

It doesn't work that way. Employees try to get paid, businesses try to save money. You think the Ravens should just give all of their players whatever they want the first time they ask for it?

Cap numbers aren't the only thing that dictates what a player will get paid.

- C -

:word

ClericBlackDave

03-10-2008, 06:19 PM

The issue here is that I think people that are "siding" with Suggs think he really is a DE and is justified to file the grievance. And that business is business, which it is.

Those of us not "siding" with Suggs (i'm one of those people) have a few issues

1) I don't think he is a DE, at least last year. My memory says (and it could be wrong) that he rushed mostly w/o a hand in the dirt

2) the grievance to me means that Suggs isn't that serious about getting the longterm deal done. He might be hoping to get the Chris McAlister treatment and get a year or two of franchise money AND a big deal. his agent might have told him thats the best way to get paid. Orlando Pace did the same thing a few years back at OT. C-Mac did it at CB.

3) he has been selected to pro-bowls at LB, definitely played LB his 1st year, is listed everywhere is a LB. Now suddenly, he's a DE? I smell greed . . .

4) Outside of the grievance, I think that Suggs is overrated and looking for more money than he's worth, especially considering the season he had last year.

In any case, I would have rather the team break the bank by now and sign him to the blockbuster deal OR let him go to another team. I still feel that way, and maybe we'll see something happen by draft day.

UKRaven

03-11-2008, 04:28 AM

Good summary Cleric, I am with you on all four points.

I just want to re-state that the Ravens and Suggs (HIS AGENT) were reported as being a LONG way from a deal. I do think we will get a deal done and I'm not sure if we even should now look for a deal!!!

I am reminded that the Ravens are still a relatively new team, other teams have been through this sort of thing before a lot more times than we have. The better teams will not cave in to excessive demands!

highwater

03-11-2008, 07:52 AM

I am reminded that the Ravens are still a relatively new team, other teams have been through this sort of thing before a lot more times than we have.

What? I don't think being a "new team" has anything to do with this issue. Ozzie has been around as long as most GMs in the league. It's not like he's in over his head.

Although, now that you mention it, this is an issue that doesn't seem to come up often -- arguing over what position a guy plays. My first reaction was that the Ravens were unnecessarily playing hardball with Suggs, but the more I think about it, maybe Suggs is the one being cheap, since he is listed as a LB in Pro Bowl voting and other sites.

And I read the other day that Ozzie has ended negotiations with Suggs on a long term deal until this greivance is settled, so perhaps he's a little pissed about this whole thing.

psuasskicker

03-11-2008, 10:10 AM

I am reminded that the Ravens are still a relatively new team, other teams have been through this sort of thing before a lot more times than we have. The better teams will not cave in to excessive demands!

First off, this has nothing to do with anything.

Second, it's not true. This organization is one of the oldest in the NFL.

- C -

UKRaven

03-11-2008, 10:51 AM

I was referring to our reaction as fan's in the main, but have it your way if you insist!

Can anyone do a comparison of which teams let players walk, verses those who pay for them to stay, on big contract players?

HoustonRaven

03-11-2008, 11:09 AM

Can anyone do a comparison of which teams let players walk, verses those who pay for them to stay, on big contract players?

Sure.

Teams that are in constant cap jail are the latter. Teams that tend to stay off the cap bubble are the former.

UKRaven

03-11-2008, 12:41 PM

Other than AD I can not recall many of our Pro-Bowlers being allowed to walk! We paid good money (over paid?) for : Ray (twice I think) / J.O. / CMac / Heap / Reed.

Any thoughts guys?

psuasskicker

03-11-2008, 01:43 PM

Other than AD I can not recall many of our Pro-Bowlers being allowed to walk! We paid good money (over paid?) for : Ray (twice I think) / J.O. / CMac / Heap / Reed.

Any thoughts guys?

wat?

Pro Bowlers are irrelevant. Jeff Garcia was a Pro Bowler this year. Who cares...

Productive players we've allowed to walk are in the multitudes. We have, in fact, allowed more to walk than we've resigned. Sharper, Herring, Adams, Woodson, Starks, etc. We've lost a lot of guys in the past, replacing them with younger draft picks. So what?

- C -