Jamal

[Losac]

He gave this quote after signing his extension:


"I said all year long that I wanted to get a long-term deal done to stay in Cleveland and it looks like with this new contract I will be able to finish my career as a Brown,"

Do you think Jamal should be in the ROH if he retires a Brown? Especially after all the Baltimore bashing he's done since leaving? I say no way. He was a bit of a malcontent while here, and really never embraced the community the way players like Boulware have.

[festivus]

Hah! Well I never wanted him in the RoH.

When he was here he was a miserable, angry, whining malcontent. Yet another prima donna jerk more than happy to attack Billick when Billick was there for him in his time of need.

He ran the ball when he was asked to, which given our QB situation was a lot. Good freaking riddance.

Ring of Honor? Not if it was mine.

:2c: I don't think this particular opinion of mine will be popular here, but there it is nevertheless.

[ravenjoe]

I loved Jamal's style of running, but a TEAM player he was not! No RoH!

[RustonRifle]

Hah! Well I never wanted him in the RoH.

When he was here he was a miserable, angry, whining malcontent. Yet another prima donna jerk more than happy to attack Billick when Billick was there for him in his time of need.

He ran the ball when he was asked to, which given our QB situation was a lot. Good freaking riddance.

Ring of Honor? Not if it was mine.

:2c: I don't think this particular opinion of mine will be popular here, but there it is nevertheless.

It's very popular with me. Jamal had too much baggage and did too much whining
while he was here to have his name enshrined in the ROH.

I honestly believe he was Prestons mole in the Ravens clubhouse.


Jamal did some great things while he was here but he was essentially a two down back. He wanted to be paid like a franchise back but those types of backs rarely come off the field.



My ROH would be reserved only for special players on and off the field.

[purplepoe]

Yes, Jamal should be in the ring of honor.

I think much of this talk about him being malcontent is completely overblown. Why did we resign him for the 06 season a day after signing Mike Anderson if he was such a problem?

He carried this offense for years, rushed for over 2000 yds in a season, broke the single game rushing yards record (since been broken), and was a key to winning the Super Bowl.

Who cares if he retires a Brown? Would it make a difference if he retired a Seahawk?

And btw, for all this talk about Jamal being a whiner etc.....

What about the other Lewis on the team. I would assume pretty much everyone would consider him a shoe in for not only our RoH but also the HOF. Yet one could argue that he's chirped just as much, if not more than Jamal. And as much as I hate to bring it up, the Atlanta incident will always be with him.

As far as all the Baltimore "bashing", please.

Every player says stuff to endear themselves to their new team and new fan base.

He wanted a long term deal and didn't get it. He was bitter and said a few things. Nothing earth shattering and definitely not enough for me to consider keeping him out of the RoH.

PP

[Hook]

Over 2000 yards in 2003, as well as being a huge part in winnng the superbowl. RoH? Got give him the thumbs up on that one :thumbup: .

Its not like were talking about the HOF.

[Losac]

Who cares if he retires a Brown? Would it make a difference if he retired a Seahawk?

Yes it would. The Seahawks are not a bitter division rival like the Browns or Steelers are. The players may not care about jumping to a rival like that, but many fans do and consider it a betrayal.


As far as all the Baltimore "bashing", please.

Every player says stuff to endear themselves to their new team and new fan base.

Why is that irrelevant? He spoke to the Cleveland media on multiple occasions how he couldn't wait to get out of Baltimore, was underutilized here, etc. Some may have a problem honoring him with his name up in M&T for all time when he said those things.

[AZRAVEN]

He would never get my vote for the RoH.:thumbdown: He was a whining malcontent who never seemed happy the entire time he was in Baltimore. Yes he had a 2000 yard season, over 500 of those yards came in two games against the damn Browns who were the worst team in the league at the time. He loves it there so much, let him go into their RoH. That ring doesn't need to be filled up in the next five years for crying out loud.

[purplepoe]

Yes it would. The Seahawks are not a bitter division rival like the Browns or Steelers are. The players may not care about jumping to a rival like that, but many fans do and consider it a betrayal.



Why is that irrelevant? He spoke to the Cleveland media on multiple occasions how he couldn't wait to get out of Baltimore, was underutilized here, etc. Some may have a problem honoring him with his name up in M&T for all time when he said those things.

Dude, he went to a team that offered him a deal. I could care less that he signed with the Browns. We decided to go a different direction. It wasn't like Jamal had a bunch of offers and decided to go to Cleveland to give a big "FU" to Baltimore. Or that he forced a trade to a rival. And remember, the consensus around here (not me) was that he was done and good riddance to him. It would be different if Jamal was offered an equal deal from both teams and went with Cleveland's offer.

I have a question for you. How many of the 68,000 or so PSL holders do you think heard Jamal's comments? Not go to on a tangent but I think sometimes we as regular posters on this board think that most or all fans follow the team and former players as closely as we do. Jamal's comments got a little play and that was it. It wasn't a major story that everyone was talking about. At least not IMO. I love this city and team as much as anyone. Did I "like" what Jamal said? Nope. But I certainly didn't think it was outlandish or way out of line. This team won alot of games because of Jamal Lewis.

Like I said, Ray Lewis has all sorts of baggage and has thrown teammates and the HC under the bus.

Do you think there will be a question about his induction into the RoH?

PP

[Losac]

Dude, he went to a team that offered him a deal. I could care less that he signed with the Browns. We decided to go a different direction. It wasn't like Jamal had a bunch of offers and decided to go to Cleveland to give a big "FU" to Baltimore. Or that he forced a trade to a rival. And remember, the consensus around here (not me) was that he was done and good riddance to him. It would be different if Jamal was offered an equal deal from both teams and went with Cleveland's offer.

I have a question for you. How many of the 68,000 or so PSL holders do you think heard Jamal's comments? Not go to on a tangent but I think sometimes we as regular posters on this board think that most or all fans follow the team and former players as closely as we do. Jamal's comments got a little play and that was it. It wasn't a major story that everyone was talking about. At least not IMO. I love this city and team as much as anyone. Did I "like" what Jamal said? Nope. But I certainly didn't think it was outlandish or way out of line. This team won alot of games because of Jamal Lewis.

Like I said, Ray Lewis has all sorts of baggage and has thrown teammates and the HC under the bus.

Do you think there will be a question about his induction into the RoH?

PP

I think it's more a question of the team brass (Bisciotti, Cass, Newsome) were aware of Jamal's comments, so would they extend him the honor knowing that? I'm sure he wouldn't hear a chorus of boos if he were introduced at a ROH induction ceremony, but I'm sure many in the crowd are aware of what he said and might have an issue with putting his name up.

We haven't even mentioned that the team stood by Jamal through his arrest and incarceration, arguably the toughest time in his life. He could have simply told the Cleveland media "I had many great years in Baltimore, but they decided to go a different route". Instead he was more critical. Maybe that was to endear himself to the Raven-hating Stain fans, but it really comes off as a bitter slap to the team that drafted him and supported him through a jail term.

If Ray signs with the Steelers and talks about how he couldn't wait to get out of Baltimore, then I might have a problem with him in the ring. Until then, apples and oranges.

[purplepoe]

I think it's more a question of the team brass (Bisciotti, Cass, Newsome) were aware of Jamal's comments, so would they extend him the honor knowing that? I'm sure he wouldn't hear a chorus of boos if he were introduced at a ROH induction ceremony, but I'm sure many in the crowd are aware of what he said and might have an issue with putting his name up.

We haven't even mentioned that the team stood by Jamal through his arrest and incarceration, arguably the toughest time in his life. He could have simply told the Cleveland media "I had many great years in Baltimore, but they decided to go a different route". Instead he was more critical. Maybe that was to endear himself to the Raven-hating Stain fans, but it really comes off as a bitter slap to the team that drafted him and supported him through a jail term.

If Ray signs with the Steelers and talks about how he couldn't wait to get out of Baltimore, then I might have a problem with him in the ring. Until then, apples and oranges.

Well, I think he gets in.

I couldn't disagree more about the Browns/Steelers thing (with your hypothetical about Ray).

I hear people complaining about Jamal and what he said here (you can put Ray in the same category), about trouble with the law (again, Ray is right there but with a much more serious charge).

The only major difference I see is Jamal said a few unsavory things when he signed with Cleveland. The fact that he's a Brown is irrelevant IMO. Do you really think him being a Brown and not on another non divisional team would somehow prevent him from being inducted into the RoH?

PP

[The Fanatic]

Why is it that everytime we've had a player put up a couple good years the RoH gets brought up?
The Byner thing was a joke, but it is what it is.

I'd personally like to see some space left on that ring for future Ravens that play after I'm long gone.

Ray and J.O. are no brainers, after those two I think it should be quite some time before another name is put up that are in the same ilk as those types of players.

[purplepoe]

Why is it that everytime we've had a player put up a couple good years the RoH gets brought up?
The Byner thing was a joke, but it is what it is.

I'd personally like to see some space left on that ring for future Ravens that play after I'm long gone.

Ray and J.O. are no brainers, after those two I think it should be quite some time before another name is put up that are in the same ilk as those types of players.

Well, I think you are brining up examples of extremes.

Obviously Byner was a Modell thing and doesn't deserve to be in there.

JO and Ray are not only locks for our RoH but for the HOF.

I don't think it's a stretch for guys like Reed/Jamal/Heap to be discussed as possible inductees.

I don't want it to be an open door with inductions every other year but I think the RoH's criteria is WAY less than the HOF.

PP

[ravenwoman]

What are they going to do when they run out of room in the Ring of Honor? Make the names tiny? They already have done that. Byner's name should be removed immediately. I certainly think Jamal is better than Byner. As far as his comments are concerned; Jamal is about Jamal. Looking out for number 1.I think his performance is boarderline deserving of the Ring of Honor, but not before Brian Billick.

[HoustonRaven]

Once again, I find myself agreeing with PP (I checked myself for a fever and didnt have one).

To deny him a spot in the RoH is simply petty. He made a huge contribution to the team while hear and has not said anything out of the ordinary for a player who goes for another teams pultry contract.

To use the "he went to a bitter rival" is even more petty. So what he went to the Clowns? At the end of the day, its a business and made the same decision 90% of us would make -- more money!

Congrats to him and his success. I look forward to his induction and I hope he gets his ass handed to him 2 times next year! ;)

[Ravens45]

In order to be inducted into the Ravens Ring of Honor, the key attributes for the player to possess are (as listed):

Character- Something Jamal lacked the final 2 or 3 years in Baltimore.

Gratitude- Which he clearly did not show, especially towards Billick, the organization, nor to most of the fans who supported him in his low moments.

Vision- Vision on the field as a great running back? Overall, yes. Vision as in supporting his coaches, teammates, and direction of the team? Definitely not.

Passion- I don't have the right to question Jamal's passion as a player, but what about his tempertantrum whinings that he wasn't "being used the right way"? That was more of a distraction than passion.

Faith and Courage- Once again, he didn't show faith in his coaches, teammates, or organization...that's why he wanted to leave.

Competitive Spirit- (see Passion)

Humility- Once again, another "no" for Jamal.


I know this may sound like I hated the guy, which I never have. During his tenure in Baltimore, I was a Jamal Lewis fan. But if the Ring of Honor were based soley on statistics, there would be more players inducted by now. You need greatness on the field as well as off the field. Jamal clearly showed the first, but not the last. So unfortunately, I'd have to say a big NO to Jamal in our RoH.

[RavenScallywag]

Good breakdown Raven45...

My view on it is that the players in our Ring of Honor should be remembered distinctly for their involvement with the Ravens. Doesn't matter if they had involvement with other teams, but I want to see someone who made a difference as a Raven. Even a division rival...we're going to put Stover in and he played for the Browns before he played for us.

On performance, Jamal wouldn't rate as a lock for RoH, but there's definitley potential there. 7800 yards in 7 years is pretty good, plus the 2000 yard season.

That said, his character showed nothing of team spirit or community involvement. Yes, compared to Earnest Byner he'd be a great pick. But without the character and community involvement, his pick seems 50-50 to me. It'll seem even less necessary if McGahee stays here long term and continues his success.

[Mr.Boh]

Ray and J.O. are no brainers, after those two I think it should be quite some time before another name is put up that are in the same ilk as those types of players.

I agree but I think after a while you have to include Billick as a no brainer. There will only ever be 1 first Ravens Super Bowl. (and i agree 100% with the decision to let him go!)
As far as Jamal, no. Not enough of a "community" guy for me. The ROH should be for the brightest spots in Ravens history on and off the field. Say what you will about Ray complaining, his involvement in Baltimore balances it out.

[Ravens45]

I would support Billick getting in 200%. I loved Coach, but I have to admit, I think the timing was near perfect for his release (I personally would probably have given him ONE more year, considering the suckiness of the team this year was mostly due to injuries, penalties, and lazy play....hmmm, sounds alot like the 2005 season, huh?) We did just finish 13-3 the season before. But still, the timing was right.

Billick gave Ravens fans so many memories from his unforgettable press conferences, to speaking publicly what the fans thought (especially towards the refs), his Super Bowl victory, etc. Granted, he did have an ego. His offensive "promise" never panned out. And he had an infamous reputation with quarterbacks; but Coach Billick deserves to get in.

Does anyone know if the fans have a say in who gets in the Ring of Honor? Is there like an online poll or write-in, or something like that? For sure, that should DEFINITELY NOT be the final say in it, but it'd be nice for the fans to have a voice and the Management can have the final say from there.

-I know this had nothing to do with Jamal, but whatever.... Just wanted to throw in my gratuity and opinion to Billick.

[UKRaven]

Why is it that everytime we've had a player put up a couple good years the RoH gets brought up?
The Byner thing was a joke, but it is what it is.

I'd personally like to see some space left on that ring for future Ravens that play after I'm long gone.

Ray and J.O. are no brainers, after those two I think it should be quite some time before another name is put up that are in the same ilk as those types of players.

:respect TOTALLY CORRECT :respect

The ring of honour should be for the VERY special players now, and in the future. Jamal does NOT come into this region (nor will he)

[braven98]

not a chance...he has his money now and he will forget where the weight room is located at...

[psuasskicker]

RoH? I didn't think he should have been in it before he signed with Clev...

- C -

[Dade]

Thats a big fat negative. Jamal was a good back for us but his head got to big for his shoulder pads. He wasn't involve with the community and wasn't an every down back.

[bmoreravengirl]

Sure, let's put the jerk in the ROH. Forget the fact that he proceeded to stick a knife in the collective backs of this organization and the fans who gave him the benefit of the doubt/stood by him when his dumb tail got in trouble (which by the way was HIS OWN FAULT). Way to show some appreciation/gratitude. But hey, let's put him in the ROH. :261695: :261695:

(I DO NOT take kindly to back-stabbing weed-smoking traitors. :mad: :mad: )

[purplepoe]

Sure, let's put the jerk in the ROH. Forget the fact that he proceeded to stick a knife in the collective backs of this organization and the fans who gave him the benefit of the doubt/stood by him when his dumb tail got in trouble (which by the way was HIS OWN FAULT). Way to show some appreciation/gratitude. But hey, let's put him in the ROH. :261695: :261695:

(I DO NOT take kindly to back-stabbing weed-smoking traitors. :mad: :mad: )

How about a backstabbing MLB who threw his teammates and coach under the bus and was involved in a far more serious court case?

PP

[Ravens45]

Are you a Ray Lewis hater Poe? It seems like everytime someone writes a post about the lack of discipline in the locker room (or pretty much any subject), Ray is always brought up as "throwing his team under the bus". I seriously never considered what Ray did as doing that. He's without a doubt the leader of the team (was Jamal? No.) Billick was fading out and frustrating the players and fans. Granted, I was and continue to be a big Coach Billick fan. And I can relate to that Ray could have handled things a bit better than openly making remarks and criticism. But if he never said a word, what are the odds that Harbaugh would be coach right now? Most likely, ZERO. Billick would still be coach. So far, I haven't seen one Ravens fan who isn't excited and/or refreshed with a new coach. I'm not saying you can thank Ray; but what I am saying is it all came out for the better. Ray Lewis will go down as the greatest Raven of ALL-TIME. Ever. How can you be a Ravens fan, and be a Ray Lewis hater? You can't. That's like saying you're a Ravens fan and couldn't stand Johnny U. Being an O's fan and not like Cal or Brooks, and thinking they were overrated. I think some need to be a little more appreciative for what Lewis has done for this team and city. You have the right to believe and feel what you want; I'm just giving the other side of the view and opinion that it's hard to understand why you (and others) bash on Ray so much.

[purplepoe]

Are you a Ray Lewis hater Poe? It seems like everytime someone writes a post about the lack of discipline in the locker room (or pretty much any subject), Ray is always brought up as "throwing his team under the bus". I seriously never considered what Ray did as doing that. He's without a doubt the leader of the team (was Jamal? No.) Billick was fading out and frustrating the players and fans. Granted, I was and continue to be a big Coach Billick fan. And I can relate to that Ray could have handled things a bit better than openly making remarks and criticism. But if he never said a word, what are the odds that Harbaugh would be coach right now? Most likely, ZERO. Billick would still be coach. So far, I haven't seen one Ravens fan who isn't excited and/or refreshed with a new coach. I'm not saying you can thank Ray; but what I am saying is it all came out for the better. Ray Lewis will go down as the greatest Raven of ALL-TIME. Ever. How can you be a Ravens fan, and be a Ray Lewis hater? You can't. That's like saying you're a Ravens fan and couldn't stand Johnny U. Being an O's fan and not like Cal or Brooks, and thinking they were overrated. I think some need to be a little more appreciative for what Lewis has done for this team and city. You have the right to believe and feel what you want; I'm just giving the other side of the view and opinion that it's hard to understand why you (and others) bash on Ray so much.

I'm not a Ray hater.

I'm simply pointing out the hypocrisy of bashing Jamal for comments made and run ins with the law yet turning a blind eye to Ray's indiscretions.

I can thank Ray for getting Billick run?

Gee, that's great.

Players pulling the strings on who the head coach should be.

That's a recipe for success for sure!

I've actually stood by Ray alot over the years when people bashed him. But I just think it's ridiculous to completely toss praise his way while shitting on Jamal.

Jamal wanted a long term deal for years here and didn't get it. People act like he was pushing to get out from a contract etc.....

I'm just dealing with the facts.

To say everything all came out for the better on March 1st before we've seen ANYTHING from Harbaugh is quite a leap, don't you think?

PP

[HoustonRaven]

Are you a Ray Lewis hater Poe? It seems like everytime someone writes a post about the lack of discipline in the locker room (or pretty much any subject), Ray is always brought up as "throwing his team under the bus". I seriously never considered what Ray did as doing that. He's without a doubt the leader of the team (was Jamal? No.) Billick was fading out and frustrating the players and fans. Granted, I was and continue to be a big Coach Billick fan. And I can relate to that Ray could have handled things a bit better than openly making remarks and criticism. But if he never said a word, what are the odds that Harbaugh would be coach right now? Most likely, ZERO. Billick would still be coach. So far, I haven't seen one Ravens fan who isn't excited and/or refreshed with a new coach. I'm not saying you can thank Ray; but what I am saying is it all came out for the better. Ray Lewis will go down as the greatest Raven of ALL-TIME. Ever. How can you be a Ravens fan, and be a Ray Lewis hater? You can't. That's like saying you're a Ravens fan and couldn't stand Johnny U. Being an O's fan and not like Cal or Brooks, and thinking they were overrated. I think some need to be a little more appreciative for what Lewis has done for this team and city. You have the right to believe and feel what you want; I'm just giving the other side of the view and opinion that it's hard to understand why you (and others) bash on Ray so much.

I think you need to re-read what people have written. Yes, Ray has some haters here but not on this thread.

I am the biggest Ray backer there is -- including a signed authentic jersey that is framed and hanging in my office. He is a class act and devoted to his many charities. To go back and finish a degree is something other pro athletes almost never do yet Ray did it out of a promise he made to his mother. He is a role model and I couldnt be more proud as a fan with his accomplishments.

With all that said, you simply cannot call out Jamal for running his mouth without making the same accusation against Ray. PP and others are simply pointing that out. To vilify Jamal for doing the exact same thing Ray does on a yearly basis is hypocritical. Sadly, our team leader does have that one flaw (that he is aware of, if you watched his presser after his Africa trip).

I have to take off the purple glasses sometimes and see our players for who they are sometimes -- they are human, no more and no less.

[Ravens45]

I'm not "turning a blind eye" to it. And I certainly don't see it as hypocritical. I will admit- and most fans feel (maybe even you too, so don't do all the finger pointing) that you'd rather stand by a player or person who's been with you and contributed more, then someone who was ungrateful (i.e., Jamal). That doesn't mean you go in denial. I'm a realist. I'm not saying Jamal's the spawn of Satan and Ray can do no wrong. That's idiotic. I admitted that Ray could have handled the situation better, and like HoustonRaven said, Ray's aware of that too.

But you go back and read these posts, maybe not this EXACT PARTICULAR thread (though I can point it out there has been), but Ravens "fans" always bring up Ray criticising the coach. What did you expect him to do? What would you have done? If something was wrong, and no one said a word, then Ray'd get blasted for not stepping up and being a leader. Being the leader has it's flaws. One of them, is that you can never make everyone happy. My point was, that after everything Ray has done for the Ravens and city of Baltimore, it just irks me that people keep bringing up his past (9 years ago), and his remarks about Billick. Has Ray been involved with the law since? No. Has Ray publicly criticized the city? No. Has Ray ever criticized and called out his teammates or organization? No. He was questioning Billick's control of the team. I'd do the same exact thing, and there's some of you who would too. I'm just stating my appreciation for what he's done, aware of what he's done, but at least he's still here, supporting his teammates, team, and playing his heart out. Nobody can say Jamal did. That's my point.

[highwater]

With all that said, you simply cannot call out Jamal for running his mouth without making the same accusation against Ray.

I don't understand this attitude that Jamal is somehow off limits because of Ray's occasional big mouth. I didn't like it when Ray ran his mouth off about Billick's playcalling or how he needed big defensive linemen in front of him, and I didn't like it when Jamal whined about how he needs 30 carries a game to be effective, as if his first 20 to 25 carries didn't count.

This "You can't criticize Jamal because Ray did the same thing" argument doesn't work for me, because I don't like it when Ray does it too.

[AZRAVEN]

I don't understand this attitude that Jamal is somehow off limits because of Ray's occasional big mouth. I didn't like it when Ray ran his mouth off about Billick's playcalling or how he needed big defensive linemen in front of him, and I didn't like it when Jamal whined about how he needs 30 carries a game to be effective, as if his first 20 to 25 carries didn't count.

This "You can't criticize Jamal because Ray did the same thing" argument doesn't work for me, because I don't like it when Ray does it too.

I don't think he was saying Jamal should be "off limits" because of Ray's big mouth; to the contrary, I think the point being made was why is it ok with many fans for Ray to be a whining malcontent but not Jamal? There are many in Baltimore who think Ray Lewis craps ice cream in 31 flavors and can do no wrong. they believe because he's a good player that there is a separate set of rules for him ~ namely that he can do or say anything he wants and it's ok. Rules don't apply to him because he's Ray Lewis while everyone else, regardless of how well they play, must follow the rules. He is rarely held accountable for his actions which are, at times, detrimental to the team. Throwing people under the bus, which at various times over the years he has done, just to vent because you're frustrated at losing is not professional behavior and it was no worse for Jamal to do it than for Ray to do it. The one thing I really hope happens under the new coaching regime is the end of the special treatment for Ray.

[HoustonRaven]

I don't understand this attitude that Jamal is somehow off limits because of Ray's occasional big mouth. I didn't like it when Ray ran his mouth off about Billick's playcalling or how he needed big defensive linemen in front of him, and I didn't like it when Jamal whined about how he needs 30 carries a game to be effective, as if his first 20 to 25 carries didn't count.

This "You can't criticize Jamal because Ray did the same thing" argument doesn't work for me, because I don't like it when Ray does it too.

AZRAVEN said it best .... I wasnt saying its mutually exclusive. I dont like either of them doing it.

[highwater]

AZRAVEN said it best .... I wasnt saying its mutually exclusive. I dont like either of them doing it.

Neither do I, so I think we're actually on the same page here.

Sorry if I misunderstood your earlier post.

[RavenFreek]

He deserves to be in there more than Earnest Byner!!!

[HoustonRaven]

Neither do I, so I think we're actually on the same page here.

Sorry if I misunderstood your earlier post.

No worries, mate :thumbup:

[bmoreravengirl]

How about a backstabbing MLB who threw his teammates and coach under the bus and was involved in a far more serious court case?
PP

Ray is a jerk too (in more ways than one), as I've stated before on this board AND on the scout board. So you can take that hypocrisy crap and shove it.

[HoustonRaven]

Ray is a jerk too (in more ways than one), as I've stated before on this board AND on the scout board. So you can take that hypocrisy crap and shove it.

Wtf? :grbac:

Define "jerk" please. I've actually met him and he is the polar opposite of the word jerk. While other athletes never bother going back to school, Ray did so as a promise to his mother and after he banked millions. Not to mention, his foundation actually does charity work (inner city kids) while other pro athletes use them as tax shelters.

If you're calling him a jerk because he runs his mouth on the field, you're being way to harsh. So how else is he a jerk, since you claim its in "more ways then one"?

[bmoreravengirl]

I believe it's already been stated, and I don't feel the need to justify my reasoning to you. You want to put him on a pedestal, fine. I choose not to.

[HoustonRaven]

I believe it's already been stated, and I don't feel the need to justify my reasoning to you. You want to put him on a pedestal, fine. I choose not to.

Riiiiggghhhttt .... there are sooooo many reasons why he's a jerk yet you cant name one other one??? I smell prejudice.

And no pedistal placing going on at all. I have issues with his on-field tactics and his unprofessional behavior when he calls out his coaches. He also cant make a decent BBQ sandwhich -- his restaurant is a joke.

I, unlike you, can seperate the player from the true man that he is. It takes a lot of courage to admit you are flawed and Ray has done, privately and publicly.

Hows that glass house you have?

[festivus]

Riiiiggghhhttt .... there are sooooo many reasons why he's a jerk yet you cant name one other one??? I smell prejudice.

And no pedistal placing going on at all. I have issues with his on-field tactics and his unprofessional behavior when he calls out his coaches. He also cant make a decent BBQ sandwhich -- his restaurant is a joke.

I, unlike you, can seperate the player from the true man that he is. It takes a lot of courage to admit you are flawed and Ray has done, privately and publicly.

Hows that glass house you have?

Back off Houston, you are beating a dead horse. Agree to disagree; it's obvious that's where your argument with bmoreravengirl has gone.

Ray has done plenty of things in his time here to make fans :ww: but he's done his share to make them :eyes: too.

For most of the players I am capable of remembering that they'll come and go, I am rooting for the jerseys but not the men who wear them.

It's just laundry.

Houston, will you forgive me for enjoying the Jim Beam I bought? ;)

[crazyraven]

Look Ray is with this team. Hes our guy. He didn't like Billick and with good reason. His side of the ball always came through every freaking year and Billicks side didn't. As fans we are frustrated, could you imagine what a good man and warrior like ray feels like.


oh and bmoreravengirl would jump Jamal's bone in a second if she knew nobody would find out about it. that's guaranteed

[HoustonRaven]

Back off Houston, you are beating a dead horse. Agree to disagree; it's obvious that's where your argument with bmoreravengirl has gone.

Ray has done plenty of things in his time here to make fans :ww: but he's done his share to make them :eyes: too.

For most of the players I am capable of remembering that they'll come and go, I am rooting for the jerseys but not the men who wear them.

It's just laundry.

Houston, will you forgive me for enjoying the Jim Beam I bought? ;)

BEAM?!?!?!?!?! :grbac:

I cant quite condem it actually. I drank the gutter water that is Wild Turkey a few weeks back.

PM me if you tried the Van Winkle yet ... lemme know how you liked it.

[bmoreravengirl]

You do not know me crazyraven, and therefore have no basis to make unsubstantiated, slanderous, and false "guarantees".

[ClericBlackDave]

Keep it real.

Jamal's current campaign with the Browns doesn't matter if he's just there to play and get paid, blah blah blah

But if he acutally retires as a Brown, no way in hell you put him in the ring of honor.

It'd be like if Derek Mason retired a Raven. I'd love that, but I'm sure that that would NOT help him get into any Tennessee ring of honor (keep in mind they are our rivals from the AFC Central days)

Who you retire with is a big deal. If he retired as a Brown after all the year here, Baltimore stickign with him through his legal non-sense, after the 2000 yard season here, then his heart obviously isn't here, you don't put a retired Browns player in the Ravens ring of honor.

Now if he retired a Baltimore Raven, then he should get consideration, and I say consideration because I still don't think he did enough for this franchise to get in.

[crazyraven]

You do not know me crazyraven, and therefore have no basis to make unsubstantiated, slanderous, and false "guarantees".

I do know one thing about you, back on the scout board you were hot for jamal in the worst way. Ain't that right raven31.

And also where do you come off calling Ray a jerk. You were all up in his restaurant the moment it opened. WTF?

[bmoreravengirl]

I noticed you used the word "were", as in "the past, not anymore".

Yes, I went to Ray's restaurant out of curiousity 3 years ago, and I haven't been back since that one time, nor will I ever.

If I call Ray a jerk, that is my opinion. This is a board where you are free to express your OPINION.

I also don't understand why you feel the need to attack me for no reason crazyraven. I think that you should stop before this thread gets locked.

[highwater]

You do not know me crazyraven, and therefore have no basis to make unsubstantiated, slanderous, and false "guarantees".

And yet he does it all the time -- it's not just you, so don't take it personal.

[crazyraven]

I have no idea what highwater is talking about. Maybe he should look at himself before he casts stones at others.

[ClericBlackDave]

I have no idea what highwater is talking about. Maybe he should look at himself before he casts stones at others.

Actually dude, you do a lot of personal attacking. Just my honest opinion. I don't think you even realize you're doing it half the time. You've personally attacked me before, and we typically get along decently well on this forum and the scout forum.

Sometimes you could probalby tone it down a notch.

[AZRAVEN]

Look Ray is with this team. Hes our guy. He didn't like Billick and with good reason. His side of the ball always came through every freaking year and Billicks side didn't. As fans we are frustrated, could you imagine what a good man and warrior like ray feels like.


oh and bmoreravengirl would jump Jamal's bone in a second if she knew nobody would find out about it. that's guaranteed

Last time I looked we were the Baltimore Ravens one team. Granted it is comprised of three units but they are still one team. The whole team was Billick's not just the offense. Frankly, I don't care if Ray liked Billick or not, his job is to play other than that keep his big mouth shut. Billick could have thrown him under the bus in 2000 but took the high road and covered his guys arse and, I might add, he paid a stiff price for doing it. A lot of the dislike felt for Billick outside Baltimore is a direct result of his defense of Ray. IMO a "good man" doesn't crap on people just because he can. Be prepared for him to do the same thing to your new savior Harbaugh the first time something doesn't go Ray's way.

[RustonRifle]

Maybe he should look at himself before he casts stones at others.

:word Bingo :ref:


Usually the people who cast stones are the biggest offenders. Some get away with it because they're in the clique some obviously don't.

I'll definately get another warning so I better stay on topic.

When the discussion is how much a player has done for the Raven franchise , Jamal isn't even on the same planet as Ray. Plus Ray plays from the opening whistle and Jamal needs carries to get a head of steam.

Putting Jamal in the ring of honor would be almost as bad as putting Byner up ther. Heck, listening to some everybody should be there. Myself I believe only special players or people should be honor'd in such a fashion.

[festivus]

BEAM?!?!?!?!?! :grbac:

I cant quite condem it actually. I drank the gutter water that is Wild Turkey a few weeks back.

PM me if you tried the Van Winkle yet ... lemme know how you liked it.

:) Ahh. I should have been more clear in the other thread. I love Van Winkle, for awhile it was my bourbon of choice.

Normally I would apologize for thread drift, but in this case. . . Who, me? :embarassed:

[crazyraven]

You've personally attacked me before, and we typically get along decently well on this forum and the scout forum

Dave we have Instant Messaged each other (by your request) several times, although not so much recently. I've never had a beef with you and never attacked you. Actually I cant believe you're even saying that.

but whatever man i guess you have a public image to conduct.


Sometimes you could probalby tone it down a notch.

Im from New York so my tone is just right.

oh For the record if raven31/Bmoreravengirl is upset i am truly sorry. I was just teasing her about jamal.

[HoustonRaven]

So back to the topic at hand ....

I can see Jamal getting in to the RoH but also see others point as to why he should not. I guess I am on the fence now after reading everyones posts.

One thing I am certain now is that Byner has NO business being up there. Its the Ring of Honor, not the Ring of Pretty Good.

[Mwjergs]

Look Ray is with this team. Hes our guy. He didn't like Billick and with good reason. His side of the ball always came through every freaking year and Billicks side didn't. As fans we are frustrated, could you imagine what a good man and warrior like ray feels like.


oh and bmoreravengirl would jump Jamal's bone in a second if she knew nobody would find out about it. that's guaranteed

Yes, Billick needed to convert better on 3rd and long with his out pattern.
Lewis is a player and Billick was a coach. How do you compare the two?

Ray plays his heart out on the field and that is easy to see but his off field comments are....interesting to say the least. If you are the stand up guy you claim to be comments made about teammates and the coaching staff should always be kept in house. Anything otherwise indicates some other form of agenda that is not related to improving your team. Lewis is like every other player, when things go bad he does what's best for him and in his best interest.

[crazyraven]

Yes, Billick needed to convert better on 3rd and long with his out pattern.
you know what I would tend to agree with this statement/sarcasm but after 9 years of missing the out patterns or handing off to the wr on and end around, enough is enough. It is his fault. It always falls on the head coach


Lewis is a player and Billick was a coach. How do you compare the two?

Ray Lewis is the only thing that has been constant during all the defensive coaching changes. When ever a coach or key Player left, doom and gloom was predicted, au contraire the defense didnt miss a beat. I am a grateful SOB that we have him. Actually we all should be.


Frankly, I don't care if Ray liked Billick or not, his job is to play other than that keep his big mouth shut.

I think this is where you are wrong. SB was poking around and asking questions either directly or indirectly, either way ray spoke the truth about Billick. It needed to be said. I'm glad the FO is asking these kinds of questions to league wide respected players.


A lot of the dislike felt for Billick outside Baltimore is a direct result of his defense of Ray. IMO a "good man" doesn't crap on people just because he can.
I dont see where Ray is crapping on anyone. On a team, things that people dont want to hear, sometime just need to be said. And in all likelyhood the right people will take the appropriate action. I'm glad ray is looking out for the ravens product and saying the right things in public or in private. I'm not so sure the guy who keeps saying he wants to retire and settle in maryland to make it his home really wants to win. Sounds like a guy bilking the system and maybe a wee bit too comfortable in his position.

Keep in mind Ray was also the victim of this sort of *backhand whispering* as well, as we all know that there were many malcontents who were so upset with rays opening dance that it had to be done away with.

[purplepoe]

Ray is a jerk too (in more ways than one), as I've stated before on this board AND on the scout board. So you can take that hypocrisy crap and shove it.

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.

Go back to scout.

Sheesh.

And you didn't answer my question. In your opinion, should Ray be in the Ravens RoH?

PP

[purplepoe]

Keep it real.

Jamal's current campaign with the Browns doesn't matter if he's just there to play and get paid, blah blah blah

But if he acutally retires as a Brown, no way in hell you put him in the ring of honor.

It'd be like if Derek Mason retired a Raven. I'd love that, but I'm sure that that would NOT help him get into any Tennessee ring of honor (keep in mind they are our rivals from the AFC Central days)

Who you retire with is a big deal. If he retired as a Brown after all the year here, Baltimore stickign with him through his legal non-sense, after the 2000 yard season here, then his heart obviously isn't here, you don't put a retired Browns player in the Ravens ring of honor.



Now if he retired a Baltimore Raven, then he should get consideration, and I say consideration because I still don't think he did enough for this franchise to get in.

What is this nonsense?

If he "retires" a Brown?

Are you saying if his career ends as a Brown then he shouldn't be considered for the Ravens RoH?

Do you want him to do the ceremonial "signing with the Ravens" then retiring bit that some players have done?

What if he plays another year or 2 with Cleveland and then moves on to, say the Texans, and ends his career there.

Countless players move on from their original teams (or the team they played with and had the most success with) but are inducted into the RoH or Team HoFs.

Franco Harris played a season in Seattle. Did that keep him out of the Steelers HoF?

Thurman Thomas left the Bills and played for a division rival. Didn't stop them from inducting him into their HOF.

Especially in this day and age of the NFL, players move around MUCH more than in the past.

I can understand if you wanna discuss Jamal's credentials and come to the conclusion that he doesn't belong. I'll disagree but it's an opinion.

But this notion that because he signed a free agent contract with Cleveland:

1. After we cut him,
2. When nobody else was offering him anything

and using it as some major reason to block him for the RoH is baffling.

PP

[HoustonRaven]

What is this nonsense?

If he "retires" a Brown?

Are you saying if his career ends as a Brown then he shouldn't be considered for the Ravens RoH?

Do you want him to do the ceremonial "signing with the Ravens" then retiring bit that some players have done?

What if he plays another year or 2 with Cleveland and then moves on to, say the Texans, and ends his career there.

Countless players move on from their original teams (or the team they played with and had the most success with) but are inducted into the RoH or Team HoFs.

Franco Harris played a season in Seattle. Did that keep him out of the Steelers HoF?

Thurman Thomas left the Bills and played for a division rival for a few years. Didn't stop them from inducting him into their HOF.

Especially in this day and age of the NFL, players move around MUCH more than in the past.

I can understand if you wanna discuss Jamal's credentials and come to the conclusion that he doesn't belong. I'll disagree but it's an opinion.

But this notion that because he signed a free agent contract with Cleveland:

1. After we cut him,
2. When nobody else was offering him anything

and using it as some major reason to block him for the RoH is baffling.

PP

:word

[festivus]

Ray Lewis =/= Jamal Lewis

Ray has been the best player at his position virtually every year he's been in the National Football League.

Jamal has been the best player at his position arguably never, at best once.

They both have off the field baggage, of different kinds, and both have done things I personally wish they hadn't. But only one is Ray Lewis.

[Ravens45]

[QUOTE=crazyraven;77588]Ray Lewis is the only thing that has been constant during all the defensive coaching changes. When ever a coach or key Player left, doom and gloom was predicted, au contraire the defense didnt miss a beat. I am a grateful SOB that we have him. Actually we all should be.


I think this is where you are wrong. SB was poking around and asking questions either directly or indirectly, either way ray spoke the truth about Billick. It needed to be said. I'm glad the FO is asking these kinds of questions to league wide respected players.


I dont see where Ray is crapping on anyone. On a team, things that people dont want to hear, sometime just need to be said. And in all likelyhood the right people will take the appropriate action. I'm glad ray is looking out for the ravens product and saying the right things in public or in private. I'm not so sure the guy who keeps saying he wants to retire and settle in maryland to make it his home really wants to win. Sounds like a guy bilking the system and maybe a wee bit too comfortable in his position.QUOTE]


This is pretty much the whole point I was trying to make. I'm stating that we ought to be more grateful to Ray than what most are, or at least how it sounds on here. Whether you do or don't like him as a person, doesn't matter. He's done ALOT for the team and city. I 100% agree that we should be grateful to have him as a Baltimore Raven.


This is the 2nd point I was trying to make, too. Yes, Ray went over the line a little bit. And he even acknowledged that, so you can't pretend that he "bashed" Billick and pretended like it never happened. You gotta give props to at least acknowledging his flaw. But the thing I was saying is, Ray's the undoubtedly leader of this team and has been for 12 years. He's an icon in the city, locker room, and all around the League and is one of the most revered players among the rest of the players in the NFL. I didn't even know Biscotti was asking around, but if he came to Ray, did you expect Ray to ignore him? Or say "Oh, everything's good", when it wasn't? If he said how he felt, the problems, the good things, etc. isn't that helping the team? Like I said, he did go over a little bit which was wrong, but just because he told it how it is, you can't condemn him for it.


And Poe, how can you even ask if Ray belongs in the RoH?

[Ravens45]

Why is it that everytime we've had a player put up a couple good years the RoH gets brought up?
The Byner thing was a joke, but it is what it is.

I'd personally like to see some space left on that ring for future Ravens that play after I'm long gone.

Ray and J.O. are no brainers, after those two I think it should be quite some time before another name is put up that are in the same ilk as those types of players.


I agree with this, but I think you're missing one other no brainer, and another strong canidate. Matt Stover's #3 is a lock. There's no way he doesn't get in, and I'm sure there's Ravens fans reading this going "Amen". The other one that should get strong consideration (and I'm sure there's gonna be a ton of responses on this), but I believe should be Coach Billick. So when Ogden, Ray, Stover are gone....those three and Billick should be inducted in. But other then them, I think it's gonna be awhile before we see anyone soon. I think Reed, McAlister, and Heap get in, but each are fairly young still. The oldest one is C-Mac and he just turned 30.

[purplepoe]

And Poe, how can you even ask if Ray belongs in the RoH?

Sigh.

I'm asking those who only seem to bring up what Jamal Lewis said as reasons to not induct him into the RoH.

Of course I know Ray will be in there at the earliest moment possible.

PP

[purplepoe]

Ray Lewis =/= Jamal Lewis

Ray has been the best player at his position virtually every year he's been in the National Football League.

Jamal has been the best player at his position arguably never, at best once.

They both have off the field baggage, of different kinds, and both have done things I personally wish they hadn't. But only one is Ray Lewis.

Was Michael McCrary ever the best at his position?

How about Boulware?

Who's comparing Ray's accomplishments to Jamal's?

We're not talking about the HoF. We are talking about the Ravens RoH.

I get the whole "let's not induct every "good" player we've had". People have brought up the names of Flynn and Mulitalo for crying out loud.

I certainly think Jamal's on field credentials far exceed those 2.

And of course, Ray and JO's credentials exceed Jamal's.

Seems to me that Ray's accomplishments on the field outweigh his indiscretions off the field stuff in some people's minds.

That's all really

PP

[bmoreravengirl]

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.

Go back to scout.

Sheesh.

And you didn't answer my question. In your opinion, should Ray be in the Ravens RoH?

PP
In regard to on-field accomplishments and if he retires a Raven, yes. Doesn't change the fact that certain things in relation to him off the field leave a lot to be desired.

Nice little childish input in the beginning of the post, BTW.

[purplepoe]

In regard to on-field accomplishments and if he retires a Raven, yes. Doesn't change the fact that certain things in relation to him off the field leave a lot to be desired.

Nice little childish input in the beginning of the post, BTW.

I asked you a simple question and you in turn told me to take my crap (no pun intended) and shove it.

Who's the childish one again?

And once again, what does retiring a Raven have to do with getting into the Ravens HoF?

Numerous players have left teams but have been inducted into that teams' HoF or RoH.

PP

[crazyraven]

The thing is the RoH is a celebration of great ravens players, some may be better than others but even still some players just belong and Jamal is one of them.

He brought me joy while he was with the team. a back like jamal is hard to come by. And if he retires a brown, packer, charger, or steeler. To me I will always remember him for what he did on the field as a ravens.

and look other teams put fan favorites into their ring as well. Look at the new HC's brother, he has his name hanging up in that god awful building in Indy.

[festivus]

Was Michael McCrary ever the best at his position?

How about Boulware?

Who's comparing Ray's accomplishments to Jamal's?

We're not talking about the HoF. We are talking about the Ravens RoH.

I get the whole "let's not induct every "good" player we've had". People have brought up the names of Flynn and Mulitalo for crying out loud.

I certainly think Jamal's on field credentials far exceed those 2.

And of course, Ray and JO's credentials exceed Jamal's.

Seems to me that Ray's accomplishments on the field outweigh his indiscretions off the field stuff in some people's minds.

That's all really

PP

/signed

Ray goes in, Jamal stays out.

Comparing them is silly, but if one insists on comparing them, I might say, each have good points and bad points. Seriously though. Ray is one of the rare athletes who has written his name as one of the greats *ever* to play. Any discussion of whether he belongs in the RoH is absurd.

Ray is a man who, with Brian Billick, was the face of the Ravens and one of the linchpins of the arrival of the franchise among the NFL's elite.

I have a little laundry list of complaints about Ray, but if we are discussing what he's meant to the organization, they pale in comparison.

Jamal Lewis was a moderately skilled running back, often injured, and a frequent malcontent. In my humble opinion he benefited greatly from a massive road-grading offensive line that suited his style, and his numbers benefited as well from the ineffectiveness that was our passing game.

Boulware and McCrary are exactly the kind of guys I want in the RoH, PP. Guys who go out and play hard and treat the team and the community with respect. Ray is not exactly the mold but he is a special case, for the reasons I already said.

[Mwjergs]

[QUOTE=crazyraven;77588]you know what I would tend to agree with this statement/sarcasm but after 9 years of missing the out patterns or handing off to the wr on and end around, enough is enough. It is his fault. It always falls on the head coach

True. A better assessment would be. Billick is the head of the offense and his schemes haven't produced explosive offense. For those reasons I'm not against the Billick firing. What I do have issue with is how people want to compare the head coach and the face of the franchise.
Coaches always get too much blame and too much credit. It is what it is.



Ray Lewis is the only thing that has been constant during all the defensive coaching changes. When ever a coach or key Player left, doom and gloom was predicted, au contraire the defense didnt miss a beat. I am a grateful SOB that we have him. Actually we all should be.

I agree that he a one of the best players I have ever seen live. But, he's human and has faults just like anyone. I would also argue that the Defense has always been the priority in terms of players acquired, drafted and amount of cap space spent. The D also played pretty well without Ray when Ed Hartwell played MLB. Not comparing the two by any means, it's just a point.

[purplepoe]

/signed

Ray goes in, Jamal stays out.

Comparing them is silly, but if one insists on comparing them, I might say, each have good points and bad points. Seriously though. Ray is one of the rare athletes who has written his name as one of the greats *ever* to play. Any discussion of whether he belongs in the RoH is absurd.

Ray is a man who, with Brian Billick, was the face of the Ravens and one of the linchpins of the arrival of the franchise among the NFL's elite.

I have a little laundry list of complaints about Ray, but if we are discussing what he's meant to the organization, they pale in comparison.

Jamal Lewis was a moderately skilled running back, often injured, and a frequent malcontent. In my humble opinion he benefited greatly from a massive road-grading offensive line that suited his style, and his numbers benefited as well from the ineffectiveness that was our passing game.

Boulware and McCrary are exactly the kind of guys I want in the RoH, PP. Guys who go out and play hard and treat the team and the community with respect. Ray is not exactly the mold but he is a special case, for the reasons I already said.

Moderately skilled?

Gimme a break. He was a freak when he came out and carried this offense for years.

So you will give Ray a break. That's my whole point.

It's amazing to me how people here completely undervalue what Jamal Lewis did on the field for this team.

PP

[festivus]

Moderately skilled?

Gimme a break. He was a freak when he came out and carried this offense for years.

So you will give Ray a break. That's my whole point.

It's amazing to me how people here completely undervalue what Jamal Lewis did on the field for this team.

PP

Oh dear. I thought we were agreeing, I guess not.

Obviously Jamal Lewis carried the team when we had no passing game. Obviously there was a year or two when he was very good.

Here is what I propose. Ray Lewis is and has been one of the greatest ever to strap on a helmet on the defensive side of the ball.

Jamal Lewis is a good running back, when healthy and accompanied by a bruising fullback; for one or two years, may even have been great.

But you can't seriously be comparing their level of on-the-field contribution, can you?

On the offensive side of the ball, for the last ten years, who have been the most dominant players? Across the entire *league*? Even in the category of 'running backs', I don't think Jamal Lewis makes the top 5. Certainly not the top 3. Meanwhile, on the defensive side of the ball, I think you would be hard pressed to name *any* defensive player as dominant as Ray Lewis, at *any* position.

Saying such-and-such a player is not in the same category as Ray Lewis is hardly a slap in the face, obviously when we are discussing on-the-field contributions, Ray Lewis is a freaking generational talent.

I'm really not trying to argue, and I don't think we have to.

[purplepoe]

Oh dear. I thought we were agreeing, I guess not.

Obviously Jamal Lewis carried the team when we had no passing game. Obviously there was a year or two when he was very good.

Here is what I propose. Ray Lewis is and has been one of the greatest ever to strap on a helmet on the defensive side of the ball.

Jamal Lewis is a good running back, when healthy and accompanied by a bruising fullback; for one or two years, may even have been great.

But you can't seriously be comparing their level of on-the-field contribution, can you?

On the offensive side of the ball, for the last ten years, who have been the most dominant players? Across the entire *league*? Even in the category of 'running backs', I don't think Jamal Lewis makes the top 5. Certainly not the top 3. Meanwhile, on the defensive side of the ball, I think you would be hard pressed to name *any* defensive player as dominant as Ray Lewis, at *any* position.

Saying such-and-such a player is not in the same category as Ray Lewis is hardly a slap in the face, obviously when we are discussing on-the-field contributions, Ray Lewis is a freaking generational talent.

I'm really not trying to argue, and I don't think we have to.

No no no.

We're not understanding each other.

I am in no way saying that Jamal and Ray's on field accomplishments are comparable.

What I'm saying is that I think Jamal's on field accomplishments are enough to get him into the Ravens RoH.

The reason Ray's name has come up is because he's also had some questionable off the field transgressions that seem to get swept under the rug because of his monumental accomplishments on it.

There have been numerous tangents on this thread so I apologize if I misunderstood you.

PP

[festivus]

No no no.

We're not understanding each other.

I am in no way saying that Jamal and Ray's on field accomplishments are comparable.

What I'm saying is that I think Jamal's on field accomplishments are enough to get him into the Ravens RoH.

The reason Ray's name has come up is because he's also had some questionable off the field transgressions that seem to get swept under the rug because of his monumental accomplishments on it.

There have been numerous tangents on this thread so I apologize if I misunderstood you.

PP

Aha. Ok, ok, ok.

You are right, we are misunderstanding each other.

I stand by my own little weird rules for the RoH, which are equal parts quality of play, and good community citizenship, and good team citizenship. So Jamal does not get in on one out of three.

You could make an argument Ray shouldn't get in under my standard for the same reason, but I am willing to make an exception for him anyway, for the reasons I gave about the level of his play.

Anyway, apologies for misunderstanding, as you correctly observed I did.