How many times did we go deep?

[Purpleguy]

I counted one. A missed ball to a wide open darling, and he was probably only open because Cleveland didn't recognize him as being on our roster. They probably thought he was a distressed fan running out on the field.

When your down by 21 you need some quick scores. McNair can't do it. Billick needed to pull his sorry ass and put in a guy that's been hot, Boller.

[RavensNTerps]

boller can simply make throws that mcnair physically can't. mcnair is worse than awful, adn the ppl blaming billick can't see the forest from the trees.

Hello...you'er playcalling is severly limited when your QB refuses to throw the ball more than 12 yards in the air.

[Sports Steve]

Funny how things change just two (2) years ago Baltimore wanted to run Kyle out of town.


:jester: :jester:

[Purpleguy]

I never wanted to run Kyle out of town. I just wanted to give him a supporting cast.

[Mista T]

Funny how things change just two (2) years ago Baltimore wanted to run Kyle out of town.


:jester: :jester:


Just Old19fart/Tex and the sheep who follow him.

I would have spent the $33 million on Adalius Thomas.

[RavenFanatic2k6]

Watch other teams, then watch the Ravens. How many times do you see Raven WRs running free through the other teams secondary? Rarely, if ever. The guru's playbook involves more short crossing routes, outs, and curls. Add to that the fact that the Ravens are a slow team - Mason and Clayton are possession WRs, they aren't going to be breaking away from DBs consistently, and Williams is still young and learning, and the opportunity to throw deep doesn't present itself very often.

I don't think it would matter though, McNair can't throw it downfield now anyway.

[ravens138]

I never wanted to run Kyle out of town. I just wanted to give him a supporting cast.

You may not wanted to but we know almost the entire fan base hated him. Look how they cheered when Kyle got hurt against the Colts. Now talk about embrassing the fans really disappointed me then.

[Purpleguy]

DWill has been open deep many times. These aren't called plays. Dead armed McNair is just constantly checking down.

[RavenFanatic2k6]

Nice try, but unless you have access to coaches tape there is no way you can tell if Williams is open deep or not, the TV camera doesn't give you that view.

[The Fanatic]

boller can simply make throws that mcnair physically can't. mcnair is worse than awful, adn the ppl blaming billick can't see the forest from the trees.

Hello...you'er playcalling is severly limited when your QB refuses to throw the ball more than 12 yards in the air.


Dude, you have me relatively confused with this post.

The people blaming Billick can't see the forest through the trees, but you're saying Mcnair sucks and refuses to throw the ball deep.

Call me blind if you will, but it seems to me that Billick can't see the forest through the trees when it comes to his quarterbacks ability to perform, and his injury status.

[Mista T]

We sure could have used Kyle today. This is getting old. McNair has no arm. I am concerned that the team is headed to 8-8 unless he gets benched.


You may not wanted to but we know almost the entire fan base hated him. Look how they cheered when Kyle got hurt against the Colts. Now talk about embrassing the fans really disappointed me then.


That's bullshit. There were maybe 100-200 "fans" who cheered Boller's injury. You could hear them only because the other 69,800 in attendance were hushed over the injury. Yes, there are Tex and his flock of sheep, but that vocal minority does not reflect the Ravens fan base. If you watched various Sun fan polls, you'd see that most Ravens fans who participated have consistently supported Boller.

[Art-Florida]

"That's bullshit. There were maybe 100-200 "fans" who cheered Boller's injury. You could hear them only because the other 69,800 in attendance were hushed over the injury. Yes, there are Tex and his flock of sheep, but that vocal minority does not reflect the Ravens fan base. If you watched various Sun fan polls, you'd see that most Ravens fans who participated have consistently supported Boller.[/quote]

That's true. The number of Bollers haters is relatively small. They just make a lot of noise, like squeaky rats are more noticeable than silent sheep, you know?

[MikeinGlennDale]

At this point, KB is the better QB on the squad. The savior is hurt and looks like this will be season long hurting.

[Greg]

Do you even watch the games? Boller has an even lower YPC average than McNair. All Boller has done this season is throw short stuff.
Maybe that is because they are actually covering deeper when Boller is in.

[StingerNLG]

Maybe that is because they are actually covering deeper when Boller is in.


It's the difference between repsecting Boller's arm, and not respecting McNair's. Opposing defenses seem to start sitting on those short routes now more than ever because they know that's the type of ball he throws.

I'll throw this nugget out too. It's real easy for McNair to have more accurate deep ball stats. Boller throws more of them. And considering they are low percentage/high risk throws, it doesn't always matter if more of them are complete. They at least keep a defense honest.

It's going to get to a point where the defense covers the short routes enough that they will be able to stop the run as well without having to stack the box.

[The Fanatic]

The Ravens truly lack a big play receiver on this team.


Demetrius Williams Isn't A Deep Threat (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5844241386998384438)

[The Fanatic]

How many deep passes has he caught this season for TDs? Compared to Randy Moss, TO, Braylon Edwards, Chad Johnson, Hines Ward, Plaxico Burress, Antoin Bolden, etc., Demetrius Williams is just not in the same class. Sorry, he doesn't even usually start on the Ravens!


Have you lost your damn mind or something?

Exactly how many deep pass catches is he supposed to have when the QB throwing the ball can't even fathom throwing a deep ball in that nature much less actually do it.



Dude you freakin' crack me up sometimes.:rolling: :rolling: :rolling:

[Purpleguy]

All that i know is that when Boller was in the natti game we looked good in the redzone. For the first half of the Jets game, when we were playing to win, we looked damn good in the red zone.

[ClericBlackDave]

Watch other teams, then watch the Ravens. How many times do you see Raven WRs running free through the other teams secondary? Rarely, if ever. The guru's playbook involves more short crossing routes, outs, and curls. Add to that the fact that the Ravens are a slow team - Mason and Clayton are possession WRs, they aren't going to be breaking away from DBs consistently, and Williams is still young and learning, and the opportunity to throw deep doesn't present itself very often.

I don't think it would matter though, McNair can't throw it downfield now anyway.

Incorrect.

The routes are there. Demetrius Williams is open deep on posts and post-corners, MCNair just won't throw there.

Mark Clayton doesn't even exist anymore. Yes, I know he's injured, but also he and DWill are running a lot more of the intermediate routes.

With McNair at the helm, whoever runs downfield farther than 12 yards just doesn't need to look for the ball, because it isn't coming.


Again, if you think its Billick, then you're not seeing this clearly.


In fact, we know Billick wants to go verticle, because when I see Kyle come in I see shotgun formation and ball going at least 15 yards downfield UNLESS its a check down.

[Purpleguy]

Sometimes a deep out requires taking a chance with one on one coverage and hoping your man makes the play. In this league guys really only get wide open on deep routes with busted plays.

[camdenyard]

In this league guys really only get wide open on deep routes with busted plays.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/media/alternatethumbnails/story/2007-10/32918155.jpg

[festivus]

:laugh:

[Purpleguy]

exzactly camden, it was a busted play. Mcalister f'ed up and jumped a route. Stride for stride C-Mac can run with Edwards.

[camdenyard]

exzactly camden, it was a busted play. Mcalister f'ed up and jumped a route. Stride for stride C-Mac can run with Edwards.

I don't call that a busted play - technically speaking those only happen on offense. You have missed assignments on D, and you have guys who are risk takers or cowboys and choose to lone wolf it. We have two of those in our secondary right now and it's hurt us.

I think you also have to give Edwards credit for selling the fake to perfection.

[Dont Know]

This makes me wonder if Billick ever has our receivers and quarterbacks work on such plays to help get the receiver so wide open.

Boller to Williams in Atlanta immediately comes to mind.

McNair? Pittsburgh last year maybe.

[Rochardrik]

How many deep passes has he caught this season for TDs? Compared to Randy Moss, TO, Braylon Edwards, Chad Johnson, Hines Ward, Plaxico Burress, Antoin Bolden, etc., Demetrius Williams is just not in the same class. Sorry, he doesn't even usually start on the Ravens!

Comparing DWill to Moss, TO, Chad, is very unfair. He may well prove to be that kind of receiver, but won't, unless BB calls the plays. However, does BB not know that if you are down by three scores late in the third that you need to score at least once in 4-5 or 6 plays? Not spend 7 or 8 minutes on Long, time consuming drives? Mind boggling, to say the least!

[Fanman]

why go deep when those 3 yard passes on 3rd on 8 work so well?

How many teams have a QB throw for 300 yards, a RB run for over 100 yrds and score 1 TD...what a joke? I bet 75% of the time, if not more, that combo gets a win in the NFL.

FM

[JimBone]

We have the recievers and the o-line is giving our qb's time. Mcnair just can't throw deep. The only ball he throws well is to the opposing defenses to kill drives.

[purplepoe]

Incorrect.

The routes are there. Demetrius Williams is open deep on posts and post-corners, MCNair just won't throw there.

Mark Clayton doesn't even exist anymore. Yes, I know he's injured, but also he and DWill are running a lot more of the intermediate routes.

With McNair at the helm, whoever runs downfield farther than 12 yards just doesn't need to look for the ball, because it isn't coming.


Again, if you think its Billick, then you're not seeing this clearly.


In fact, we know Billick wants to go verticle, because when I see Kyle come in I see shotgun formation and ball going at least 15 yards downfield UNLESS its a check down.

Wait wait wait.

When exactly is Williams open on all of these post and deep out routes?

1. That's just incorrect.

2. Were you at the game on Sunday? Because the cameras follow the ball Dave. How in the hell do you know that Williams was even running those routes, let alone was open.

3. If you think this team is running WRs on deep routes, you are kidding yourself. Even everyone who has been clamouring for Boller for awhile admit that this team doesn't go downfield enough no matter what QB is in there.

Seriously. How can you possibly sit here with a straight face and say that Williams is open on deep routes.

And I got news for ya. We weren't running deep routes vs the Jets or Cardinals either. I sat there from my seat and witnessed it.

Did you?

The most hilarious part is that I and others who have been ardent Boller critics believe that at this moment he should be in there.

It's called being objective Dave. I had no agenda against Boller. I thought McNair gave us the best chance. But he's obviously hurt and it's clearly affecting his play. So I take that into account and come to the conclusion that Boller might be the better option until McNair is 100%.

I don't make up stuff like Williams somehow being open on deep routes when I KNOW they aren't even running any deep routes. And they didn't with Boller vs the Jets.

Those are the facts.

You can make up stuff if you'd like, but I know better than to believe that crap.

PP

[highwater]

He has yet to utilize McGahee to his full ability, nor does he change anything in the Red Zone when the definition of insanity is doing the same wrong thing over and over.

If the definition of insanity is doing the same wrong thing over and over, then you are clearly describing yourself, because you write the same two or three posts over and over and over.

Regarding the actual topic of this thread, it seems to me that regardless of who the QB is, we haven't gone long much at all. I don't claim to understand why that is, because I know Billick likes to do that a few times a game, and you can't say it's because of the QB because even when Boller is in the game, they haven't gone deep often. I think the OL has actually been, for the most part, pretty decent in pass protection, so I don't think it's that either. Maybe it's because the WRs aren't getting open when they go long, but I don't know -- you'd think they would try a bomb once in while anyway, just to keep the defense honest, but they haven't. I confess I'm puzzled about this. Maybe when Billick is in the heat of the battle, he forgets that he likes to throw long occasionally.

[ravens138]

We won't go deep until we relace McNair. I like Steve but he doesn't have a deep ball anymore. If we are not going to give Kyle a real chance then they shouldn't have signed him for another year.

[purplepoe]

We won't go deep until we relace McNair. I like Steve but he doesn't have a deep ball anymore. If we are not going to give Kyle a real chance then they shouldn't have signed him for another year.

How many times did we go deep when Boller started and played the entire Jets game?

PP

[highwater]

How many times did we go deep when Boller started and played the entire Jets game?

That was the point of my last post -- it doesn't seem to matter who the QB is, we haven't thrown deep much at all this season. Maybe we could if Boller is in, but he's been in, and we still haven't done it. I don't get it, but it doesn't appear to matter who is in at QB.

[purplepoe]

That was the point of my last post -- it doesn't seem to matter who the QB is, we haven't thrown deep much at all this season. Maybe we could if Boller is in, but he's been in, and we still haven't done it. I don't get it, but it doesn't appear to matter who is in at QB.

I gotcha HW.

I was responding to another post.

If people think Boller is the better option, fine. I think they have a valid point.

But I cannot stand when people make stuff up about these phantom deep routes when trying to argue that Boller should playing.

It's just flat out incorrect that this team stretches the field. Period.

Can Boller throw the ball farther? Absolutely.

That doesn't mean we will when he's in. We've already got evidence of that this season.

PP

[highwater]

Can Boller throw the ball farther? Absolutely. That doesn't mean we will when he's in. We've already got evidence of that this season.PP

I agree, it sounds like we're on the same page here. The issue appears to be the game plan, but even that baffles me, because Billick has in the past always taken some shots downfield, at least a few times a game. It hasn't happened so far this season, and who is in at QB seems to be irrelevant.

Like I said before, I admit I don't get it.

[Ravenator]

I think we are looking at this all from a wide reciever stand point. Whether or not recievers get open you have to be willing to throw down field. One on One is a good enough situation for D-williams because he can out leap alot of guys around the league for the ball. At this point i am will to say i would prefer to have Boller throw the ball deep down field and get picked off then have McNair throw it away on third and long.

[purplepoe]

I think we are looking at this all from a wide reciever stand point. Whether or not recievers get open you have to be willing to throw down field. One on One is a good enough situation for D-williams because he can out leap alot of guys around the league for the ball. At this point i am will to say i would prefer to have Boller throw the ball deep down field and get picked off then have McNair throw it away on third and long.

Sigh.

This team doesn't run deep routes very often let alone run deep routes where the WR gets separation and is open.

Some here would like you to believe we do, but the reality is, we've started both QBs and we've seen the same exact thing.

Short passes and ball control.

PP

[highwater]

Some here would like you to believe we do, but the reality is, we've started both QBs and we've seen the same exact thing.
Short passes and ball control.PP

Which doesn't work well when you fall behind by double digits, as we did this last game. It's all becoming very clear -- this offense needs to become more versitle. We're just too one-dimensional right now. It's hard to come from behind when your passing game is dinks and dunks.

[purplepoe]

Which doesn't work well when you fall behind by double digits, as we did this last game. It's all becoming very clear -- this offense needs to become more versitle. We're just too one-dimensional right now. It's hard to come from behind when your passing game is dinks and dunks.

14-0 is a hole for sure.

But with 3 and a half quarters left, it's not a ridiculous hole to dig out of.

The problem isn't throwing the deep ball IMO.

It's the red zone.

After Reed's INT, we needed a TD. Period. But we settled for a FG.

It's hard to comeback from any hole in this league. You can absolutely do it by throwing short and intermediate. In fact, that's the way most teams do make comebacks. It's not airing it out and making huge plays. That happens rarely and it's usually the result of a secondary breakdown. When teams are up they usually try to take away the deep ball.

My problem was the complete lack of a hurry up offense when we were down 21 with 10 minutes to go.

Sure, McNair didn't seem to have much urgency but Billick is running the offense and could have easily had them go no huddle. But alas, he didn't.

This whole team has me scratching my head.

PP

[Mr OC]

14-0 is a hole for sure.

But with 3 and a half quarters left, it's not a ridiculous hole to dig out of.

The problem isn't throwing the deep ball IMO.

It's the red zone.

After Reed's INT, we needed a TD. Period. But we settled for a FG.

It's hard to comeback from any hole in this league. You can absolutely do it by throwing short and intermediate. In fact, that's the way most teams do make comebacks. It's not airing it out and making huge plays. That happens rarely and it's usually the result of a secondary breakdown. When teams are up they usually try to take away the deep ball.

My problem was the complete lack of a hurry up offense when we were down 21 with 10 minutes to go.

Sure, McNair didn't seem to have much urgency but Billick is running the offense and could have easily had them go no huddle. But alas, he didn't.

This whole team has me scratching my head.

PP

I agree with you Poe. With the time of possession (34:29 to 25:31), yards on offense (418), and first downs (26), with 0 punts, if the trips in the red zone are touchdowns, we'd be talking about how great our #8 rated offense is.

The lack of a sense of urgency is in my opinion all on the coach, but this is an old story.

Pressure up the middle on defense minimizes the trouble in the secondary.

[Raveninwoodlawn]

People are turning on another QB...what else is new.

Like PP said, if you want Boller to start...fine. You can't defend McNair's play and Boller has played well. I actually would rather see Boller start at this point because it is apparent that McNair is either washed up, or still hurt...and he isn't helping the team by playing with either scenario.

But this myth that Boller airs it out is just flat out annoying. I tried to ignore this thread, but I just couldn't.

There is nothing to suggest that we are a deep throwing team with Boller in there...other than Boller has a stronger arm. We don't have a burner at WR and we throw 4 yard crossing patterns to Derrick Mason 10 times a game no matter who the QB is.

If you think Boller gives us the best chance to win...we get it...fine, most are coming to that way of thinking...you don't have to throw out phantom facts of us throwing deep to prove your point.

[RavensNTerps]

It's not that Boller "airs it out."

It's that he can make tough throws that McNair can't make.

In other words...there's no need to defend the 10 yard out with McNair in, b/c he physically can't make that throw. The field shrinks with McNair in there both length-wise AND width wise. McNair doesn't make the 4th down throw to Mason that Boller made at Cincy. Not saying he wouldn't have converted necessarily, but he just has shown a physical inability to make THAT throw and throws like it.

Another example. Think back to the Cardinals game. On 3rd and TWO Boller completed a bullet on a quick out to Mason that picked up 4 yards. Again, McNair just doesn't have the "zip" to make that throw, and, in all honesty, if he tried it would have PROBABLY been picked off.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the routes become severely limited when McNair is in there. It handcuffs the offense. Boller may not air it out more, as you would say, but the threat is there, and the field is MUCH more open.

[Raveninwoodlawn]

McNair has thrown plenty of 10 yard comeback routes to D-Will.

Yes there are some throws that Boller can make that McNair can't.

There were also throws that Elway could make that Montana couldn't (In no way comparing Boller to Elway or McNair to Montana).

Arm strength is certainly a very good quality for a QB to have but it is not neccessary for a good QB.

This very board (at least the scout one) had like a 30 page thread declaring Chris freaking Redman as our future...now I know the thread turned into somewhat of a parody joke thread, but there were people there who defended Chris against some who constantly berated his arm stregnth...now some of those people who insisted that arm strength isn't a big deal with Redman are basically crying about McNair's.

Anyway, the whole issue is that there are some in this thread who think that we are going to be explosive or at least look to be explosive with Boller in there...and the stats and history of this offense since Q left suggest otherwise. For such an open field, Boller sure checks down so much that his ypa is actually lower than McNair...with having basically the same completion percentage.

[purplepoe]

McNair has thrown plenty of 10 yard comeback routes to D-Will.

Yes there are some throws that Boller can make that McNair can't.

There were also throws that Elway could make that Montana couldn't (In no way comparing Boller to Elway or McNair to Montana).

Arm strength is certainly a very good quality for a QB to have but it is not neccessary for a good QB.

This very board (at least the scout one) had like a 30 page thread declaring Chris freaking Redman as our future...now I know the thread turned into somewhat of a parody joke thread, but there were people there who defended Chris against some who constantly berated his arm stregnth...now some of those people who insisted that arm strength isn't a big deal with Redman are basically crying about McNair's.

Anyway, the whole issue is that there are some in this thread who think that we are going to be explosive or at least look to be explosive with Boller in there...and the stats and history of this offense since Q left suggest otherwise. For such an open field, Boller sure checks down so much that his ypa is actually lower than McNair...with having basically the same completion percentage.

This post is dead on.

The Chris Redman thread reference shoots holes in so many people's argument it's unreal.

Im not sure what it's gonna take for people to realize that what we are seeing is our offense. It's been this way for YEARS.

PP

[StingerNLG]

This post is dead on.

The Chris Redman thread reference shoots holes in so many people's argument it's unreal.

Im not sure what it's gonna take for people to realize that what we are seeing is our offense. It's been this way for YEARS.

PP

PP, what's frustrating is that if you remember, I asked that exact question for the last 3 years myself, both here and scout. No one wanted to lay blame on the OL, or the receivers, or the coaching. It was all about the QB. Moreover, it was all about Boller, and how he had to go. I said it didn't matter who came in, as long as the culture around him was the same, nothing would change.

Now, there was certainly blame to be laid on Boller's feet. No doubt about it. So I don't want that to be misunderstood.

But the OL changed, and the receivers changed. And as a result, you're seeing the exact improvement I said people would see.

But the gameplan hasn't changed at all. I wrote about it in week 2. Is it our receivers just not having the speed? D-Will should. Is it not having enough line time to get receivers downfield? Or is it Billick's fear of high-risk, low-percentage throws?


Chris Redman was an odd situation if ever I saw one. Here's a guy that set NCAA records in College, set records at his school, and Johnny U loved him with a passion. What in the world happened to this kid once he got up here?

[flraven]

But the gameplan hasn't changed at all. I wrote about it in week 2. Is it our receivers just not having the speed? D-Will should. Is it not having enough line time to get receivers downfield? Or is it Billick's fear of high-risk, low-percentage throws?


Chris Redman was an odd situation if ever I saw one. Here's a guy that set NCAA records in College, set records at his school, and Johnny U loved him with a passion. What in the world happened to this kid once he got up here?

I kinda think its Billick's "west coast-style" offense is the reason why they don't go vertical.

And you raise a good question about what happened with Redman. Perhaps it was Cavanaugh? who knows?

[festivus]

Uh, I thought mostly everyone knew what happened with Redman.:eek: He was doing okay, progressing fairly well when they drafted Boller because Billick was enamored with arm strength over accurcay and poise and convinced Ozzie to waste two picks. Once Boller was picked Redman knew he was a dead man walking and to make matters worse he subsquently injured his back and throwing shoulder and tried to play through it.

Tex you've been *so* close to reality and now you had to go there.

The whole REASON Boller was brought in was because Redman did not have the tools to play starting quarterback. If Redman had been good, or as the original plan was, if Grbac was here, there would not have been a *need* to trade away a later first for Boller. The reason nobody came to your house and *told* you the team had no confidence in Redman is because Brian and his staff will *always* speak well of their own, even when the subject is Chris Redman.

Chris Redman played like garbage and it was nobody else's fault. God bless him for his good character and success at college but it was not meant to be in the NFL.

Please move the F on. :grbac:

[RavensNTerps]

This post is dead on.

The Chris Redman thread reference shoots holes in so many people's argument it's unreal.

Im not sure what it's gonna take for people to realize that what we are seeing is our offense. It's been this way for YEARS.

PP

I never really supported Chris Redman as a NFL QB, so if you're talking about me...you're wrong. And yes, I remember the thread.

Redman was a great guy though, too bad he never got it together.

And the offense under McNair isn't similar to the previous offenses at all. Maybe it's Billick calling the plays, but either way...

For instance...now every damn third down longer than 4 yards, we go to shot gun offset with Musa Smith. Say what you will about the annoyingness and predictability of this formation, but I remember in 2001-2003, there were debates on the board literally on why Billick refuses to use the shotgun formation.

[Rochardrik]

Uh, I thought mostly everyone knew what happened with Redman.:eek: He was doing okay, progressing fairly well when they drafted Boller because Billick was enamored with arm strength over accurcay and poise and convinced Ozzie to waste two picks. Once Boller was picked Redman knew he was a dead man walking and to make matters worse he subsquently injured his back and throwing shoulder and tried to play through it. End of the Redman story. I personally am glad to see him make it back and wish him nothing but the best as I always liked him. To bad he couldn't stay healthy as I believe he might have regained his starting job when Boller continued to tank. However, nobody can ever know for sure what "might" have been.:(
Tex, if you will recall, The Ravens wanted to draft Leftwich, but the phones were tied up! They grasped at straws and drafted Boller, because they knew they did not have our savior in Chris R............
Tex liked Redman because he was from Louisville, and JU was his mentor. Tex, That was because he was here, not because he was any good! JU endorsed him because he was asked to work with him, not because he showed such promise... How's he doin' now? Playing? playing well?.... 'Nuff said!

[darb72]

We're not thowing the ball deep more often when Boller is in there. Just isn't in Billicks 2,000+ page playbook.

Something I have noticed though is that Bollers passes are actually getting to the receivers quicker than McNairs. McNair is throwing the ball a mile high on those 10 yard outs though, and that is either a sign of his groin being injured or his arm is just shot.

Rest McNair. We're 2-2 and Pissburgh is 3-1. We need McNair healthy if we're going to win the North though, and y'all know it.

[purplepoe]

We're not thowing the ball deep more often when Boller is in there. Just isn't in Billicks 2,000+ page playbook.

Something I have noticed though is that Bollers passes are actually getting to the receivers quicker than McNairs. McNair is throwing the ball a mile high on those 10 yard outs though, and that is either a sign of his groin being injured or his arm is just shot.

Rest McNair. We're 2-2 and Pissburgh is 3-1. We need McNair healthy if we're going to win the North though, and y'all know it.

Exactly.

But Billick seems to think McNair is fine (if you believe what he says) even though everyone can see him wincing in pain on the field.

I would've started Boller in both the Cards and Browns game and then seen where McNair's health was.

PP

[festivus]

I don't know what you base it on to state that Redman "played like garbage" other than the one performance where he came off the bench cold against the Rams and was obviously injured to begin with and never should have taken the field. The rest of the time as the starting QB he actually looked pretty good and his ratings and won-loss record actually a better percentage than Boller is over is career, and Redman didn't have all that great receivers or OL either.

Tex I am including the preseason, which you have perhaps glossed over in your memory. That said. . .

For my own sanity I'm putting you back on ignore, with my compliments for a week or so of nearly-sane posts.

[ClericBlackDave]

I continually am suprised to hear people say the deep passes aren't in Billick's playbook.


1) Billicks playbook in Minnesota has PLENTY of deep passes / deep routes, but maybe i'm mistaken

2) Maybe I'm one of a few people that watch the other routes being ran and consistently see D Will and Clayton and Darling running intermediate to deep routes. Its just they don't get thrown to if they run that route, it gets thrown to the short route, usually ran by a FB, TE, or our glorified RB Derrick Mason


At some point your QB has to be willing to take a chance. I don't think the McNair we have right now, healthy or not, will allow us to beat the Colts, the Patriots, or any team that successfully stops YAC and this short passing.


I say healthy or not, because McNair's sucking goes back to the last few games of last year, before this supposed groin tear.


Additionally, his good performance was mediocre too. 16 td to 10 INTs over 14 or 15 games. That about a passing TD a game. Very conservative, and not enough to beat the elite teams.


I think many are still in the mindset "anything is better than Boller". Yet Boller's performance since the 2nd half of '05 should make anyone question if the beat up McNair we have now is really better than Kyle.


Again, my position is that the deep routes are there.

[Raveninwoodlawn]

Dave, how many games have you been to?

[ClericBlackDave]

This season? None. I plan to be there for Patriots Ravens, Rams Ravens, going to head to NY state for buffalo ravens, and maybe one more

Last year I was at Falcons Ravens, Bills Ravens, Colts playoff game, and one more.

This year I've only been TV watching.

From what I've seen, the deep routes are there, McNair chooses to go underneath.

[RavensNTerps]

Boller has a much higher ceiling, and a lower floor, than McNair. The difference between now and 2 years ago, is that that gap has shrunk. The ceiling is still much higher, but the floor isnt' quite as low.

Clearly someone somewhere wants McNair to be what the misconception of Dilfer was. A care taker who won't turn the ball over.

1) He, just like Dilfer, IS turning the ball over too much to play this kind of offense

and

2) The defense is still good, but not tremendous. It's nowhere near the level of last year, much less 2000. They won't win games by themselves.

If McNair is going to LOSE games for us (as opposed to simply not winning them and letting teh D do the dirty work) than we have nothing to lose by playing Boller.

[purplepoe]

This season? None. I plan to be there for Patriots Ravens, Rams Ravens, going to head to NY state for buffalo ravens, and maybe one more

Last year I was at Falcons Ravens, Bills Ravens, Colts playoff game, and one more.

This year I've only been TV watching.

From what I've seen, the deep routes are there, McNair chooses to go underneath.

This is pure unadulterated bullshit.

This team IS NOT running deep routes.

You sit here and say they are with what proof?

The TV cameras follow the ball. How can you sit here and say deep routes are being run?

Do you have access to the CBS control room and every camera? Because I've watched every snap of each game this year and haven't seen deep routes.

And by the way, 2 of those games I watched in person.

Your theory is worthless Dave. You know why? Because Boller started the Jets game and it was the SAME offense.

Why is this so hard for you to comprehend? It's not an opinion. It's a fact.

And people on both sides of the fence with regards to the QB can plainly see it.

But not you. You will insist, despite concrete evidence disputing your claim, that this team is running their WRs on deep routes.

You've been to ZERO games and STILL make these ridiculous claims.

Hell, Im on the record as saying I would've started Boller vs the Cards and the Browns because of McNair's groin.

This isn't about what QB you prefer.

It's about the facts of this offense.

And please, do yourself a favor and stop bringing up Billick in Minnesota.

PP

[purplepoe]

And one more thing.

This team's problem isn't with the long ball.

We're getting to the red zone with pretty much ease.

That's where the problem lies.

This whole notion about having a major deep threat is a red herring.

That's painfully obvious.

PP

[Raveninwoodlawn]

Ok...you haven't been to any games, but you know what guys are doing 20 yards downfield.

Thanks Dave, wonderful insight.

[FHRaven]

In case people gloss over the Article-Bot postings, Aaron wrote a story on this topic.

http://www.ravens24x7.com/column_view.php?cid=33&id=1817&view=archive

[ClericBlackDave]

By all means, I dont expect any of you to change your mind about whats going on, because we all have our opinions/agendas here. Many want to blame Billick, I think its the QB and thats apparent when you watch the tape.


As for routes getting ran, and how do I see that when the camera only follows the ball, ummmm you can still see the field.


For instance, on teh crossing route where mcnair threw the pick, its a deep crossing route and the reciever that crossed over the top was the open reciever (it was a flag the WR ran). It was a wide over the top throw but our QB forces it underneath and a defender deptly knows the ball is going underneath. Know how? Because our QB is unwilling to throw anywhere else.


Another route was a short in / button hook Mason ran and McNair sailed the ball. Right before that you can see Demetrius williams run a post corner wide open. But the ball doesn't go there. Nor will it ever.


But I guess since I haven't been to any games yet, my opinion doesn't matter. Figures. I guess only the 65,000 fans at the stadium ever have the view to have an opinion about the routes run.


siiiiiike. Honestly, the routes are there.



PP, this does matter for redzone efficiency. Because the issue with that is there is less real estate to throw and run in, so you need a QB who can use every inch of the field, and can make every throw.


With McNair seemingly unable to scramble like he did 1st half last year, and with an arm that is no longer truly live, he can fit the ball into a tight window without danger of turnover.


So, all we see thrown to are fade routes, skinny posts, and routes shy of the 1st down/ end zone because those are the safe throws McNair will choose to make.


At this point, it'll be interesting to see how long the coaching staff / 2nd half of the fan base is willing to see the offense sink with McNair at the helm.


This sunday is must win, and we should win. But we gotta score pts.


We open it up with Boller, 17 pts in a quarter and a half of action. I admit it was a home game. However, we see McNair against a SHITTY browns defense, and we get 13 pts over teh course of a whole game.

[RavensNTerps]

And one more thing.

This team's problem isn't with the long ball.

We're getting to the red zone with pretty much ease.

That's where the problem lies.

This whole notion about having a major deep threat is a red herring.

That's painfully obvious.

PP

Untrue. They go hand in hand.

Teams are willing to give us that underneath crap because they know they can squat on it when the lanes tighten in the red zone. If you don't ever pass the ball more than 11 yards down field, then why defend it?

[RavensNTerps]

Ok...you haven't been to any games, but you know what guys are doing 20 yards downfield.

Thanks Dave, wonderful insight.

In Dave's defense...there were a few times against Cleveland where Williams WAS open down field.

I remember one time in particular...the safety was showing blitz pre snap, and DID blitz. Now, against a team like the Browns, a safety blitz should open something up for a quick hitter down field. But McNair held on to the ball and got crushed.

A few other times I saw him settle for the underneath Mason, too, while other WRs were deeper. He reminds me of Jordan Steffy.

It's not a bad thing that he can find the open guy, but thats the reason we struggle in the redzone so much. He's afraid to fit it in to a tight space (probably rightfully so) so he settles for the wide open guy. That'll move you between the 20s, as we've seen, but stall you in the red zone every time.

[darb72]

This may be one of our dumber arguments because both sides are right.

Do we run deep routes? Sure, some. Do we throw deep? Uhmmm... not that I've seen. It's been beaten into our QBs heads, "Don't be a hero, just move the chains."

In all fairness the NFL isn't played like Madden. And I just proved my own theory wrong. Damn I hate when I do that. Right now the Cowboys are number one with 19 pass plays over 20 yards. We have five. That's not taking into account how many of theirs are short completions with broken tackles (hate him all you want, but TO is one of the best in the league at that).

We're not going deep. If its because McNair can't, or Billick won't I can't say.

[Ravenator]

I just want to point out to Tex Ritter that during today's game against the 49ers that D. Williams was wide open down field on a deep route at least once. McNair just missed him and overthrew him. I know McNair has better numbers and is probably the better QB but right now I don't believe he gives us the best opportunity to win. Unless he can get his throws under control I would prefer Boller in the game right now.
I have said this to several of the people I go to games with, "I trust McNair with the game on the line and in the big games, but Boller right now can give us an aspect I believe McNair is missing." I still don't believe that McNair is 100% healthy. As soon as he is then he should be the starter but otherwise Boller should take snaps. A 100% Boller is better then a 75% McNair and the switch must be made.

[RavensNTerps]

This may be one of our dumber arguments because both sides are right.

Do we run deep routes? Sure, some. Do we throw deep? Uhmmm... not that I've seen. It's been beaten into our QBs heads, "Don't be a hero, just move the chains."

In all fairness the NFL isn't played like Madden. And I just proved my own theory wrong. Damn I hate when I do that. Right now the Cowboys are number one with 19 pass plays over 20 yards. We have five. That's not taking into account how many of theirs are short completions with broken tackles (hate him all you want, but TO is one of the best in the league at that).

We're not going deep. If its because McNair can't, or Billick won't I can't say.


I agree. The bottom line is this, IMO. There is a difference between the 4 yard passes that Boller completes and the 4 yard passes that McNair completes. Just look at the Arizona game. If you think that McNair can make the 3rd and 2 pass that Boller chucked to Mason, you haven't been watching the Ravens the last 2 years. It was only 4 yards, but it wasn't a small hook route and the receiver waited for a floating ball.

Never in a million years thought i'd say this, but Boller is better at hitting receivers in stride at this point.